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Rethinking the App Store

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Re: Rethinking the App Store

#131

Post by ocdtrekkie »

wbronitsky wrote: post #120
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably control of iOS means Apple would never lose the ability to distrust/remove a given store and apps installed with it. But Apple would need to be under clear regulation that it could not do so for a revenue-related reason. Presumably a store openly promoting pirated apps would be a reason, and a store which has significant malware problems, could both be compelling reasons to permit Apple to do this, but I w…

> it could not do so for a revenue-related reason While this might sound good, this would be impossible to enforce in practice, as everything a company does is revenue-related. Any rules the app store or iOS have are directly related to revenue by definition. For example, if Apple allowed boundless permissions and tons of buggy apps, their revenue would probably decrease. This issue is harder to regulate than it firs…

Yes, technically, "everything a company does is revenue-related". However, you can realistically draw a line sonewhere between blocking illegal material (pirated/malware) and blocking apps that don't pay Apple their 30%. My comment was not intended to be the exact legalese that would be required for such a limitation, but you can probably gather roughly where I draw the line from it.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#132

Post by electriclove »

wayneftw wrote: post #107
jpttsn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS is not sold as a general purpose computing OS. It’s been clear from day one. People use products way beyond their original purpose, and then feel entitled to the manufacturer’s support. Like eating candy for every meal, and then complaining that it’s not good nutrition.

Some shady car manufacturers tried to stop people from being able to buy after market parts for their cars and our legal system put a stop to that. So, given that phones are easily as important as cars, I have confidence that we'll get justice for Apple's anti-consumer behavior too.

Tesla is clamping down on people offering performance enhancements that compete with their own. https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/ie6660/any_boo...

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#133

Post by 52-6F-62 »

bluesign wrote: post #40
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Having 3rd party stores will be net negative for me as a user. Currently I have trust to Apple, if I am or my kid charged wrong or tricked into some subscription etc, I have proof with experience that Apple will fix it. Now let’s say if we have many stores, some stores will try to be smart, will make exclusive deals, force people to install their stores to maybe play a one popular game. As a user I will end up with 1…

I'm very much of a similar opinion.

In response to OP's comment, my first question is "fair to whom". Is it fair that suddenly that the ecosystem we consciously paid for should suddenly be forcefully changed, permanently, because vendors see dollar signs?

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#134

Post by sjwright »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #20
AriaMinaei wrote: post #16

One idea I don't see discussed is that the App Store model is a disincentive for Apple to come up with better sandboxing and security. Apple is in fact uniquely positioned to introduce a better sandboxing model. They control most of the stack, crucially the CPU and the build toolchain, not to mention the PL. They could, were they not so reliant on the App Store auditing process, make it less likely for people to deve…

The raison d'être of the Apple App Store is to make money. All other considerations are secondary at best.

Ultimately true of all businesses and all products.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#135

Post by adoxyz »

jpttsn wrote: post #59
fierarul wrote: post #50

Interesting this is not positioned as a civil rights issue too. I understand, you have a developer company vs Apple. But what about people buying these computing gadgets? The millions upon millions of them. Shouldn't they have the right to run whatever software they feel like it on this general purpose computing OS without Apple's forced intermediation?

iOS is not sold as a general purpose computing OS. It’s been clear from day one. People use products way beyond their original purpose, and then feel entitled to the manufacturer’s support. Like eating candy for every meal, and then complaining that it’s not good nutrition.

how do you define a general purpose computing OS?

I would be hard pressed to see how iOS or iPadOS are not general computing OS's.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#136

Post by whywhywhywhy »

fierarul wrote: post #50

Interesting this is not positioned as a civil rights issue too. I understand, you have a developer company vs Apple. But what about people buying these computing gadgets? The millions upon millions of them. Shouldn't they have the right to run whatever software they feel like it on this general purpose computing OS without Apple's forced intermediation?

Surprised I've not seen more people arguing from the opposite end, if it's so essential for everything on my iPad to go through Apple and to pay them 30% then why isn't it on MacBooks too.

If it's so essential as some people are claiming then they should be happy to argue MacBooks be locked down the same way but I bet they wont.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#137

Post by ardy42 »

simonh wrote: post #128
ardy42 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with this is that it would be putting an obligation on Apple to design and implement APIs it doesn't want to create or support, and implement features it disagrees with. That's not a problem, it's just life. Pretty much every person and organization has obligations they need to comply with that they may disagree with. For instance, COPPA means Apple (and other internet companies) already need to impleme…

So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great! Not going to happen. Apple will simple close up the App Store into a private premium feature delivery system. Meanwhile the entire rest of the industry will be stuck with a new version of WAP. Thanks guys.

> So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great!

They already do. For instance Microsoft was forced to create BrowserChoice.eu because of an antitrust case. GDPR puts requirements on user interfaces for personal data collection. I'm not aware of similar US examples (except maybe the aforementioned COPPA), but I know US law specifies form designs and font types/sizes for certain content (IIRC, to combat hiding disclosures in illegible type, etc).

This kind of thing typically only happens when private self-interest gets in the way of the public good, which is arguably the case with some of Apple's App Store decisions.

> Not going to happen. Apple will simple close up the App Store into a private premium feature delivery system. Meanwhile the entire rest of the industry will be stuck with a new version of WAP.

Are you serious? Apple's going to comply with whatever regulations they need to, because having an app store is too lucrative for them. They're not going to cut their nose to spite their face.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#138

Post by orangecat »

jbverschoor wrote: post #72
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Emm. no thank you. History has shown that it will be abused. Also, the curation makes sure, or at least does their best effort, to catch phishing screens etc. Payments/wallet for example require the lock button. You can't mimic that. The App Store and iOS lockdown are one of the biggest reasons I'm on Apple devices. On macOS, I think there should be even more sandboxing and process separation. 30% might be a bit too…

On macOS, I think there should be even more sandboxing and process separation.

I agree, and that's very different from forbidding unapproved software. If you support the iOS lockdown, how can you say that Apple shouldn't do the same thing on macOS? For that matter, why shouldn't they be aggressively filtering what web sites Safari can view? By failing to do these things they are continuing to leave users vulnerable to malicious content.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#139

Post by [deleted] »

simonh wrote: post #128
ardy42 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with this is that it would be putting an obligation on Apple to design and implement APIs it doesn't want to create or support, and implement features it disagrees with. That's not a problem, it's just life. Pretty much every person and organization has obligations they need to comply with that they may disagree with. For instance, COPPA means Apple (and other internet companies) already need to impleme…

So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great! Not going to happen. Apple will simple close up the App Store into a private premium feature delivery system. Meanwhile the entire rest of the industry will be stuck with a new version of WAP. Thanks guys.

[deleted]

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#140

Post by pentae »

randomsearch wrote: post #48

This is really quite a simple problem: the rent is too damn high. Apple should drop or tier their pricing so that a $10 subscription is paying say 5% to them. Developers are happy. Anyone raking it in pays more, a progressive system that ensures small companies can innovate. Is this bad for Apple? In the long-term, they get more innovation and a better user experience. Financially, they lose some income on a subset o…

This still doesn't solve the fact that Apple can control who gets to do business on the app store. Politically divisive apps, government blacklisted apps, gambling apps, adult oriented apps, crypto apps, free speech apps, certain vpn apps - none of these can currently exist with the Apple curated App Store approach. And just because those apps might not be for you doesn't mean millions and millions of users who have shelled out $1k+ for a phone don't want them on their fancy device they paid for.

Allowing sideloading as Android does would fix all these issues. Sideloading can start with a 3rd party app store, even.

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