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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#591

I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. I think we should speak more about this fact, so that people think twice before they buy some device. I only make websites, but I am worried, that at some point, Apple would want me to pay them, so that my website is openable on their devices.

Because it does not matter to the vast majority of people. In fact many appreciate that there is a gate keeper. There are so many categories where you cannot load software outside of what the manufacturer provides that you cannot list them. It would also be impractical to allow otherwise for many of these. Then you end up with warranty issues. Would you allow people to load software of their choice for their automobi…

> There are so many categories where you cannot load software outside of what the manufacturer provides that you cannot list them

To be fair, that's only for lack of skills (not blaming people for not having them, but it's the main reason)

I can flash most of my devices with the software I want, my cousin is a rally driver and he hacks into cars ECUs all the times, they are not locked by design, you need the tools and the expertise though

> Smart TVs usually are limited by their OS and encumbered by licensing that locks down what can be loaded.

Not if the are android TVs, you can still side load apps.

Anyway they still work as normal TVs if you completely ignore the "smart" part, iOS devices don't work if you don't authenticate on Apple servers

> Do you want a world where you need a virus scan program for your phone?

Tons of photos, videos and private informations are leaked everyday from iPhones

It is a false sense of security

> because a manufacturer does not adhere to your desire is by no means justification for forcing them to do so.

But it could be because it's breaking some law

In Italy ISPs are forced to let you chose between the ISP bundled modem or the one you buy and release all the information you need to make it work on their networks

If they refuse to comply, you can sue them

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#592

I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. I think we should speak more about this fact, so that people think twice before they buy some device. I only make websites, but I am worried, that at some point, Apple would want me to pay them, so that my website is openable on their devices.

> where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. My two reasons: 1. I bought cellphones before the iPhone. This is nothing new. 2. I don't need everything to run on my phone. The amount of things I can't run on my phone, but wish I could is incredibly tiny, compared to the perceived additional utility my iphone gives me compared to my last Android or dumbphone. Moreover, I also own a Ni…

> I am not alone in accepting that certain devices will only run manufacturer approved software.

You certainly are not, but that doesn't mean your opinion is the only valid opinion

I don want to be married, I don't think other people should be forced out of marriage because it's ok for me...

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#593
post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the Microsoft Store charges 30% for games, Google play is 30%, Steam is 30%, I'm sure there are app stores I'm not thinking of that charge 30%. It seems to be the industry standard App Store cut.

But the Microsoft Store isn't THE ONLY WAY to get games installed on Windows, and that's what's different. It isn't the 30%! It's that there's only a single way into iOS. It's a literal monopoly, and they are large enough that this matters, now.

As of march 2019

> The updated ADA includes the new Microsoft Store fee structure that delivers up to 95 percent of the revenue back to consumer app developers. To ensure you receive the full 95 percent revenue, be sure to instrument your referring traffic URLs with a CID.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's highly relevant. Consider Spotify vs Apple music. If Spotify has to charge X + 30% to subscriber's on iPhone in order to make X then they absolutely can't compete on price if Apple simply charges X.

It's not relevant. The cut taken is not the point. It's that the app store is the only avenue onto an iOS device. EVERY OTHER meaningful computing platform (that is, not solely a gaming device) has multiple avenues to acquire and install software. Not iOS, and that's the issue. I don't know why I keep expecting users here to understand this. It's not going to happen.

What about Chrome OS? Only some chromebooks have unlocked bootloaders, otherwise there is no way to install new software besides web apps or browser extensions.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's unfortunate that the percentage cut ends up overshadowing the real antitrust issue The merits of the antitrust part are not supposed to be handled in a TRO. Its purpose is to maintain the status quo and limit possibly irreparable damages while the complex issues are debated in court. Here the 30% cut is important because it's a matter of deciding what a reasonable number would be. In the case most favorable to…

> In the case most favorable to Epic, it could be reduced to a lower value No. The most favourable outcome would be allowing Epic and others who already have their own sales and payment channels to use them alongside the app store payment system. I think that's the main reason this lawsuit exists. I don't think Epic or Spotify really want to creat their own iOS app store.

Epic (Tim Sweeney) explicitly says that if not for App Store policies, they would launch an alternate App Store on iOS in the set of emails to Tim Cook that Apple submitted to the court:

> 2. A competing Epic Games Store app available through the iOS App Store and through direct installation that has equal access to underlying operating system features for software installation and update as the iOS App Store itself has, including the ability to install and update software as seamlessly as the iOS App Store experience. [1]

[1] https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21807251/e..., Exhibit D, Page 2, Point 2.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a Mac app a few weeks ago that got to the front page here on HN[1]. It isn't notarized by Apple since I don't want to pay Apple just so I can give my work away for free that fixes something that shouldn't be an issue in their OS in the first place. When users run the app for the first time, they get a warning[2]. For that kind of popup to happen when anyone tries to use anything by Epic would almost certainly…

How is this any different from Windows? If your code is not signed with an EV code signing certificate, a similar warning will be shown on Windows. The difference is that, that certificate will set you back 500-600 USD a year. Though I believe you can obtain "trusted" status without a cert through people using your software and not reporting it as malware.

Microsoft isn't the only provider of certificates. It's more like the web where there are many authorities, not just one. If Epic were getting their cert from Microsoft and Microsoft retaliated to something Epic did with Fortnite on Xbox by revoking their certificate on Windows, Epic could just switch to a different provider for their EV cert.

The other difference is the message itself. Windows just displays a warning that the software couldn't be checked by smartscreen.[1] Once the app is used by enough people for the app to be in the smartscreen system the warning will disappear. Users will still see that the publisher is "unknown" though.[2] MacOS directs users to contact the developer that the app must be "updated" even if the only issue with the app is that it isn't notarized. A more fair message would be along the lines of "This app has not been notarized by Apple. Only run the application if you trust the source."

Code signing is intended to verify that the app actually came from who you think it came from. If the certificate for MS Word is unknown or something other than Microsoft you know something's not right and it's either been modified by a third party or not MS Word at all. Apple is using code signing to exert control over Epic Games rather than it's intended purpose to verify to MacOS users that their Unreal Engine in fact came from Epic.

1. https://www.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/windows-10...

2. https://www.techspot.com/articles-info/1718/images/2018-10-0...

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not relevant. The cut taken is not the point. It's that the app store is the only avenue onto an iOS device. EVERY OTHER meaningful computing platform (that is, not solely a gaming device) has multiple avenues to acquire and install software. Not iOS, and that's the issue. I don't know why I keep expecting users here to understand this. It's not going to happen.

What about Chrome OS? Only some chromebooks have unlocked bootloaders, otherwise there is no way to install new software besides web apps or browser extensions.

I said "meaningful" computing devices.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#598
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what way is Steam on Linux in any way similar to Google Play Services on Android? Steamworks. > I have no idea what you mean by this, but I also don't see what the GPL has to do with it. You can easily write GPL software that you sell on Steam which uses all of Valve's features. Steamworks is needed for that and isn't GPL compatible. You can sell GPL software on Steam, but can't use many features and are isolate…

This is borderline FUD. You don't need to use Steamworks to publish a Steam game. With respect to games, most commercial licenses also have these same restrictions, e.g. Unreal Engine. This seems fine, GPL is probably not suitable here. I don't think Valve is going out of their way to harm anyone's freedoms. If you really want to release your game as GPL, then do the usual workarounds: use a shim which RPC's to the p…

> If you really want to release your game as GPL, then do the usual workarounds: use a shim which RPC's to the proprietary bit.

Sounds like the non-solution to GPL software on Apple's App Store, which restricts GPL (or has in the past): run it on a remote server.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a Mac app a few weeks ago that got to the front page here on HN[1]. It isn't notarized by Apple since I don't want to pay Apple just so I can give my work away for free that fixes something that shouldn't be an issue in their OS in the first place. When users run the app for the first time, they get a warning[2]. For that kind of popup to happen when anyone tries to use anything by Epic would almost certainly…

Thanks for sharing your experience. I also work on a free utility for macOS that I'm not paying $100 each year to release. As a result, macOS treats that app like it's radioactive. It's a disservice to users who intentionally download the app to improve their experiences, only to find out that the program is a second-class citizen on macOS, and they need to perform a security ritual to use it. If the users don't know…

Yes exactly. From the perspective of the user, macOS treats you fairly. Apple carefully words everything to shift the blame to developers for things like notarization. The message that appears when apps aren't notarized puts the blame on the developer by saying "This software needs to be updated. Contact the developer for more information". To the user who doesn't know any better it's the developer's fault. Apple takes great care to ensure users never blame something that has gone wrong on Apple themselves.

Users get a good experience on macOS and iOS so they will continue buying Apple devices which also leads to more people switching to Apple devices due to pressures of things like iMessage. Meanwhile developers are essentially forced to agree to Apple's terms to access an extremely significant portion of the market (especially when it comes to smart phones). Those terms effectively censor developer criticism by preventing developers from explaining their situation to users. If developers don't comply, their apps will be removed and their development certificates revoked on all Apple platforms. As a user Apple feels fair, as a developer it's painfully obvious that Apple is abusing their market position. Look at what's happening with Floatplane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QzHu-sjdB8

Unless things change, I don't think I will choose to purchase an Apple device ever again. But if their market share continues to increase it will be impossible to survive as a developer without releasing for Apple devices and to develop for Apple devices I will be forced to buy their devices. The App Store and everything Apple offers is certainly worth something. Is it worth 30%? Who knows. The market isn't what decided that fee, Apple and all other software storefronts have somehow arrived at that number themselves. With no realistic way for competitors to offer alternative software storefronts on iOS and Android at their own price to compete and bring fees to their true value, we will never know.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just don't use it What's the argument here, why not just don't use an iPhone then? Why turn an iPhone into more of an Android? I have an iPhone because I don't want to be like an Android. It's a feature to me that this (and other possibilities, bad and good) is not possible, hence why I bought it.

Your essentially saying, you won't use hardware x because software y is available. Allowing me to use software y does not impact you.

Me choosing to use hardware x because software y is unavailable does not impact you either. You don't like iPhone or any "i" environment, don't use it.

You have to understand that to many of us it is very much a feature that it's not possible to sideload or allow more control of your device. It's not lack of a feature, it is a feature. Just as much as a feature to you is the ability to sideload or take more control. This is why I should buy an iPhone and you should not. My preferences are different than yours. I do not want you, myself, or others to have some of these abilities; not merely the option not to use them.

I very much like the iPhone because of design architecture differences over Android. It's not perfect but (imo) closer to perfect than Android. We live in a world with many options and not all must subscribe to the same paradigm.

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