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Rethinking the App Store

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Re: Rethinking the App Store

#71

Post by moooo99 »

lloeki wrote: post #42
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

> Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard There are many things that go wrong with the App Store, but you have to realise this is a ludicrous assertion. Pasting from clipboard is an entirely different class than rootkits, backdoors, trojans, and other malware that have a vanishingly s…

> Without review, publishing an app with a sandbox bypass, or simply abusing entitlements, becomes trivial.

I don't think this would be trivial either. Given that iOS security has historically been rather good, I guess an attacker would need a reasonably new exploit or even zero day. Assuming an attacker has access to something like that, I'm 99.8% certain he'd be able to sneak past the review process as well.

As Fortnite has demonstrated, it is perfectly possible to sneak past the review process with something as obvious as a third party payment checkout. If something like that is possible, it'd be definitely possible for something like an exploit.

The review process isn't magic

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#72

Post by jbverschoor »

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Emm. no thank you. History has shown that it will be abused. Also, the curation makes sure, or at least does their best effort, to catch phishing screens etc. Payments/wallet for example require the lock button. You can't mimic that.

The App Store and iOS lockdown are one of the biggest reasons I'm on Apple devices.

On macOS, I think there should be even more sandboxing and process separation.

30% might be a bit too much for certain types of transactions, but that's not the same reasoning as "allow 3rd party app stores"

I'm surprised people aren't talking about other appstores / platforms. It's just good-old-apple-bashing.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#73

Post by nickflood »

throwaway13337 wrote: post #68
nickflood wrote: post #28

Note how many sources wanted to stay anonymous "for fear of upsetting Apple". Apple knows they can end businesses with the click of a finger. That's what they tried to do by ending the dev license for Unreal Engine. And Apple wants everybody to know that they know. I'm almost certain that the Unreal Dev license revocation is a result of a similar email chain as what happened to Kindle - https://www.macrumors.com/2020…

Epic isn't the hero we need but the hero we deserve. I can certainly imagine a lot of companies are tight-lipped about it. My livelihood depends on an app store and so I'm super cautious about what I say publicly about the company that controls it. This sort of chilling effect is scary and should rightly be contested. Epic is criticized for being a huge company themselves and using that as leverage in their legal bat…

Me too. I think, Epic is uniquely positioned also because it is privately held. As such, its actions are more representative of what Tim Sweeney thinks is right instead of the investor mob. And to me as a developer Tim Sweeney seems like a pretty good guy similar to Carmack in many ways.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#74

Post by SllX »

jabirali wrote: post #63
SllX wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding Facebook and Google is trivial; the reason people use their services is they get value from their services.

> Avoiding Facebook and Google is trivial Avoiding Google is definitely not trivial. I know here in Norway, lots of public schools are giving teachers and pupils Chromebooks, and insisting that homework is done in Google Docs. How would you propose avoiding Google in this setting? You pretty much have to bring a Google device into your home and actively use it if you want to complete your education.

It’s school equipment, not personal equipment, as should be the Google Account associated with it. The value of these is to the school, not to you, not to your children. Treat it like a work laptop and segregate personal crap from school crap (or enforce this on your kids) and return it at the end of the year if you don’t want it.

Or just send your kids to a different school, but frankly I’m not familiar with your school system or how much choice you guys have on where to send your kids.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#75

Post by ryanbrunner »

jbverschoor wrote: post #72
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Emm. no thank you. History has shown that it will be abused. Also, the curation makes sure, or at least does their best effort, to catch phishing screens etc. Payments/wallet for example require the lock button. You can't mimic that. The App Store and iOS lockdown are one of the biggest reasons I'm on Apple devices. On macOS, I think there should be even more sandboxing and process separation. 30% might be a bit too…

It's easy to just not use non-Apple app stores though. That's the current state of things on Google, where other app stores are allowed but the vast majority of people just use Google.

If you personally value security and a smooth user experience over being able to install whatever you want go for it, no one would ever force you to use another app store.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#77

Post by izacus »

jpttsn wrote: post #59
fierarul wrote: post #50

Interesting this is not positioned as a civil rights issue too. I understand, you have a developer company vs Apple. But what about people buying these computing gadgets? The millions upon millions of them. Shouldn't they have the right to run whatever software they feel like it on this general purpose computing OS without Apple's forced intermediation?

iOS is not sold as a general purpose computing OS. It’s been clear from day one. People use products way beyond their original purpose, and then feel entitled to the manufacturer’s support. Like eating candy for every meal, and then complaining that it’s not good nutrition.

That is patently false if you even take a glance at iPad webpage. Some itself is very loudly screaming about how iPad is a computer to replace your laptop.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#78

Post by guytv »

AnonHP wrote: post #66
Santosh83 wrote: post #52

Here's an open secret. Most people globally buy an iDevice because it has become a fashion symbol, a status symbol and the peer pressure is huge to sport one, once you reach the financial ability to buy them. It has little to do with otherwise non-technical people somehow appreciating the technical nuances of security, curation, walled gardens, sideloading and so on.

Maybe some people buy it as a status symbol, but the user experience in general, for someone who doesn't want root and other customizability but likes a nice smooth easy-to-use interface (as much as smartphones of today can even be user friendly), is far better on the iOS side than on the Android side. And one doesn't have to carry a large and heavier device in order to get this experience (compare the battery capaci…

> far better on the iOS side than on the Android side.

From my experience - latest Android on a Pixel phone is as good as the latest iOS experience. Where do you see iOS's being a "far better" experience?

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#80

Post by threatofrain »

throwaway13337 wrote: post #43
willvarfar wrote: post #32

I'm divided. As a programmer, I'm as happy as a pig in mud in the low-level innards of my computers and operating systems, and like that I can get at them etc. That's why I have linux on my desktop. But 'open' systems don't work out well for 'normal' users. Remember the viruses and trojans and instability and all the rest of the Windows days, or Android? I want my parents and friends and everyone else to use an iphon…

You can have your cake and eat it. Sandboxing-type security is damn good on mobile OSes. We tend to associate desktop with the insecure but it's not because of the lack of an app store. It's because desktop OSes do not sandbox, ask user permission, etc. Modern mobile OSes do so it's really night and day. This takes care of 90% of why mobile OSes are more secure than desktop ones - not app stores. I'm sure that there…

Apple's position is that if you want to deploy apps onto the iPhone, then you must provide a way for the user to signup with Apple as the intermediary.

This actually increases user choices because for any app which has an existence outside the app store, users can now choose to either pay the conventional way or have Apple intermediate. Before users had to accept Microsoft's way or don't use Microsoft Office.

I'm okay with 3rd party app stores, but I wouldn't be okay with losing the option to signup through Apple, which is more what companies care about.

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