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Rethinking the App Store

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Re: Rethinking the App Store

#51

Post by kqvamxurcagg »

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Ultimately giving users choice is the best way forward. Apple shouldn't be allowed to block competing app stores (or sideloading) on their platform, in my view that's monopolistic.

Imagine if Microsoft had restricted the ability to install and use third party software on Windows, it would of slowed digital transformation dramatically.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#52

Post by Santosh83 »

Here's an open secret. Most people globally buy an iDevice because it has become a fashion symbol, a status symbol and the peer pressure is huge to sport one, once you reach the financial ability to buy them.

It has little to do with otherwise non-technical people somehow appreciating the technical nuances of security, curation, walled gardens, sideloading and so on.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#53

Post by guytv »

bluesign wrote: post #40
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Having 3rd party stores will be net negative for me as a user. Currently I have trust to Apple, if I am or my kid charged wrong or tricked into some subscription etc, I have proof with experience that Apple will fix it. Now let’s say if we have many stores, some stores will try to be smart, will make exclusive deals, force people to install their stores to maybe play a one popular game. As a user I will end up with 1…

Exactly. That's the price of freedom. Are you willing to pay it? or sacrifice your freedom for convenience? Most people, I suspect, will choose the latter.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#54

Post by MilaM »

lloeki wrote: post #42
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

> Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard There are many things that go wrong with the App Store, but you have to realise this is a ludicrous assertion. Pasting from clipboard is an entirely different class than rootkits, backdoors, trojans, and other malware that have a vanishingly s…

Yet Epic was able to sneak in their own payment system through app review. The review process is also not magic.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#55

Post by threeseed »

kalleboo wrote: post #39
threeseed wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of Apple's security does in fact come from the curation process. Access to private APIs for example is not preventable at runtime due to the way Objective-C works. And the ability to change payment screens etc at runtime has always been possible. But Apple simply bans the developer and so instances of this happening in the wild have been basically non-existant.

Access to private APIs is also impossible to prevent in screening since it’s trivial to obfuscate

Not sure if it's impossible but from experience it's very difficult to bypass Apple's screening process.

They can class-dump the Mach-O binary, disassemble and inspect the performSelector: calls or even just run the apps in an ARM emulator and watch for alarms whenever the reviewer manually goes through the app.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#56

Post by dannyr »

bluesign wrote: post #40
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Having 3rd party stores will be net negative for me as a user. Currently I have trust to Apple, if I am or my kid charged wrong or tricked into some subscription etc, I have proof with experience that Apple will fix it. Now let’s say if we have many stores, some stores will try to be smart, will make exclusive deals, force people to install their stores to maybe play a one popular game. As a user I will end up with 1…

> Having 3rd party stores will be net negative for me as a user.

Having 3rd party stores will not prevent you for using the Apple App Store exclusively.

> As a user I will end up with 10 stores on my phone, each has my billing information,

Imagine if there is only 1 store, e.g. Walmart? Only Walmart has your billing information and it's the only store where you can buy things.

> Now let’s say if we have many stores

That would be great. These stores will be competing for customers that would drive prices down.

One store might decline to sell a specific product for many reasons but another store might carry the product.

Imagine that as a manufacturer, you can only sell thru Walmart. Walmart declines to sell your product and you have nowhere else to sell.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#57

Post by cblconfederate »

secretsatan wrote: post #3
cblconfederate wrote: post #2

In other news, i wonder why ios app developers aren't considered apple's employees? In fact someone could sue apple to force them to do so. Their developer guidelines are so strict and hands-on that they don't justify them being used as "gig workers". And apple's statements in this document make the emphatic point that they use those developers to deliver an excellent experience. They even provide their paycheck (and…

What about cross platform solutions? web pages? or apps that are interfaces to seperate solutions. What about apps that are written once that developers still receive royalties from without any updates? Apple enforce a base level quality that mostly isn't that hard to conform to, some developers do not like this, but most apple consumers do, otherwise, they would be free to buy android phones and sideload everything

My argument is obviously a stretch, but as more and more work is becoming this kind of "opportunistic work" , there's a valid case that gig work is at a disadvantage by the protections afforded to permanent work. So, a normalization of regulation sounds reasonable.

That said, this is about devs, and not about what consumers think. And btw i doubt apple's strongarm of apps is popular among its users. Apple likes to market their "precious app ecosystem", but even an unregulated one isn't bad -- android is doing fine and is more popular.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#58

Post by kqvamxurcagg »

bluesign wrote: post #40
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Having 3rd party stores will be net negative for me as a user. Currently I have trust to Apple, if I am or my kid charged wrong or tricked into some subscription etc, I have proof with experience that Apple will fix it. Now let’s say if we have many stores, some stores will try to be smart, will make exclusive deals, force people to install their stores to maybe play a one popular game. As a user I will end up with 1…

At a micro level I can understand this point, but the proper functioning of markets requires competition. You likely wouldn't advocate one supermarket, one car company or one hardware manufacturer. Even if you would prefer to use Apple's Store it's wrong to deny others (both producers and consumers) free choice.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#59

Post by jpttsn »

fierarul wrote: post #50

Interesting this is not positioned as a civil rights issue too. I understand, you have a developer company vs Apple. But what about people buying these computing gadgets? The millions upon millions of them. Shouldn't they have the right to run whatever software they feel like it on this general purpose computing OS without Apple's forced intermediation?

iOS is not sold as a general purpose computing OS. It’s been clear from day one.

People use products way beyond their original purpose, and then feel entitled to the manufacturer’s support. Like eating candy for every meal, and then complaining that it’s not good nutrition.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#60

Post by supermatt »

Hendrikto wrote: post #25
supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

> with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content I do not get the focus on TikTok. Yes, it read your clipboard content… just like Snapchat, Instagram, Reddit, etc. Most security researchers agree that TikTok is among the more restrained social media apps, when it comes to gathering user data. This is a bad look for the social media landscape in general, not TikTok specifically.

to be honest, it was just that tiktok was publicised as doing so. I have nothing against tiktok, and do not like this witch hunt myself - it was just a recent example.
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