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Rethinking the App Store

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Re: Rethinking the App Store

#61

Post by AriaMinaei »

threeseed wrote: post #45
AriaMinaei wrote: post #16

One idea I don't see discussed is that the App Store model is a disincentive for Apple to come up with better sandboxing and security. Apple is in fact uniquely positioned to introduce a better sandboxing model. They control most of the stack, crucially the CPU and the build toolchain, not to mention the PL. They could, were they not so reliant on the App Store auditing process, make it less likely for people to deve…

Any chance you can dispel with the meaningless buzzwords ? "Abstractions around processes and IPC" does not reduce the number of malware and privacy invasive apps. And who knows what "virtualization and capabilities" even means in the context of iOS. It has been limiting and securing access to APIs/data that has been responsible for improving the privacy and security of iOS. For example warning about use of clipboard…

You are being incharitable in reading the comment. Sandboxing and capabilities are buzzwords now? And meaningless?

I'm happy to explain more if you frame your question (for which you seem to already have an answer) less combatively.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#62

Post by [deleted] »

MilaM wrote: post #54
lloeki wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard There are many things that go wrong with the App Store, but you have to realise this is a ludicrous assertion. Pasting from clipboard is an entirely different class than rootkits, backdoors, trojans, and other malware that have a vanishingly s…

Yet Epic was able to sneak in their own payment system through app review. The review process is also not magic.

[deleted]

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#63

Post by jabirali »

SllX wrote: post #10
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #5

In short, what is needed are new laws built for the Internet, which is why it was encouraging that Congress is holding hearings about these issues, and also frustrating that Apple received relatively little attention. That's because the Google and FB monopolies are a much bigger problem. If you don't like Apple then there are plenty of other choices. It's much harder to avoid Google or Facebook.

Avoiding Facebook and Google is trivial; the reason people use their services is they get value from their services.

> Avoiding Facebook and Google is trivial

Avoiding Google is definitely not trivial. I know here in Norway, lots of public schools are giving teachers and pupils Chromebooks, and insisting that homework is done in Google Docs. How would you propose avoiding Google in this setting? You pretty much have to bring a Google device into your home and actively use it if you want to complete your education.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#64

Post by virgilp »

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

> Jobs originally said that the aim of the 30% was to cover costs of running the store. It is evident from the MASSIVE profits that this is no longer the case.

I think this is key; I would argue that Jobs has a point on curation being important; but also, in the modern world, the app store is arguably "public utility".

Apple can keep their store & their rules, but the law should cap the fees so that they only cover costs of running the store - nothing more. Not unlike how EU has e.g. capped mobile data fees for telcos.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#65

Post by dkersten »

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

I agree with this. The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. The App Store as it stands has completely stagnated to the point where it’s useless to me outside of actually downloading or buying an app. It’s been years since I’ve been able to discover new apps though it, now relying for devs to link their apps directly, YouTube videos talking about apps or websites with app lists. If I go in the App Store looking for something, unless it by chance happens to be in their top list, I can’t find anything I don’t already have a link for or know the name of, at least on iPad. If I click on a category and press “show all”, they show me maybe ten or twenty apps in total. Out of thousands.

By opening the platform to other app stores, developers will benefit due to choice and competition on fees and descoverability, end users will benefit from encouraged innovation, Apple will be forced to compete on convenience or features instead of letting it stagnate while they collect buckets of cash... it would be good for consumers and the ecosystem.

Microsoft got into trouble for bundling a web browser, where they didn’t directly make money, Apple should get into trouble for the App Store, where they do directly make money due to their artificial lack of competition.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#66

Post by AnonHP »

Santosh83 wrote: post #52

Here's an open secret. Most people globally buy an iDevice because it has become a fashion symbol, a status symbol and the peer pressure is huge to sport one, once you reach the financial ability to buy them. It has little to do with otherwise non-technical people somehow appreciating the technical nuances of security, curation, walled gardens, sideloading and so on.

Maybe some people buy it as a status symbol, but the user experience in general, for someone who doesn't want root and other customizability but likes a nice smooth easy-to-use interface (as much as smartphones of today can even be user friendly), is far better on the iOS side than on the Android side. And one doesn't have to carry a large and heavier device in order to get this experience (compare the battery capacities between iOS devices and Android devices). There are things that only those who use it can realize.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#67

Post by cblconfederate »

Santosh83 wrote: post #52

Here's an open secret. Most people globally buy an iDevice because it has become a fashion symbol, a status symbol and the peer pressure is huge to sport one, once you reach the financial ability to buy them. It has little to do with otherwise non-technical people somehow appreciating the technical nuances of security, curation, walled gardens, sideloading and so on.

This needs to be brought up more often. Apple IS a lifestyle, fashion brand, and this is probably a sector that is heavily underappreciated by entrepreneurs. Fashion is a strong motivator, and phones are strong social signal indicators, - something that is not appreciated among developers/techies. I know some ppl who bought a mac (because their peers did) and yet run windows (because excel is all they do/know). Also, considering that iDevices are designed to appeal to "simple users", it's kind of an oxymoron to pretend that their average consumer appreciates them for Swift compilers or their processors.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#68

Post by throwaway13337 »

nickflood wrote: post #28

Note how many sources wanted to stay anonymous "for fear of upsetting Apple". Apple knows they can end businesses with the click of a finger. That's what they tried to do by ending the dev license for Unreal Engine. And Apple wants everybody to know that they know. I'm almost certain that the Unreal Dev license revocation is a result of a similar email chain as what happened to Kindle - https://www.macrumors.com/2020…

Epic isn't the hero we need but the hero we deserve.

I can certainly imagine a lot of companies are tight-lipped about it.

My livelihood depends on an app store and so I'm super cautious about what I say publicly about the company that controls it.

This sort of chilling effect is scary and should rightly be contested.

Epic is criticized for being a huge company themselves and using that as leverage in their legal battle. However, small companies stand absolutely no chance so Epic is the only one that can take this fight.

Epic is the champion of all the smaller businesses with apps on phones. Not because Epic wants them to do well but because Epic wants Epic to do well. They'll just happen to help all of us - consumer and developer - with them.

I'm rooting for them.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#69

Post by threatofrain »

For any app which has an existence beyond the app store, customers can already pay without Apple. Customers can pay for Microsoft Office, Amazon Prime, or Netflix on their own through conventional channels.

Apple's position is that if you are delivering digital goods to be used on their devices, then you must offer an additional way to pay.

From the consumer's perspective my choices have now grown. Where before I could've managed my own relationships with Microsoft and others, now I can have the option for Apple to intermediate. For people with elderly parents and runaway subscriptions, this is crazy valuable.

And while I say customers can manage their own relationships, the truth is that without Apple backing them up, it's companies who will get the better of the relationship by successfully compelling customers to go through their bad payment system, like they already do.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#70

Post by nickflood »

willvarfar wrote: post #32

I'm divided. As a programmer, I'm as happy as a pig in mud in the low-level innards of my computers and operating systems, and like that I can get at them etc. That's why I have linux on my desktop. But 'open' systems don't work out well for 'normal' users. Remember the viruses and trojans and instability and all the rest of the Windows days, or Android? I want my parents and friends and everyone else to use an iphon…

Apple says that App Store is secure and stuff. But it would not become less secure if there are other stores. And everybody who wants security for themselves could choose to use the App Store exclusively.

Everybody else, on the other hand, would not be forced to do the same for the benefit of a big corp.

Sure, I've got relatives who would happily install crap on their devices given the ability, but iPhone's internal sandboxing and containerisation would make it easy for you to completely wipe the apps from third-party stores if someone ever tried to ask you to make a device better for them.

I think, it's a tradeoff, and IMO making people's devices a little bit more trashy in the name of freedom of business and innovation is a worthwile compromise. If only Apple didn't become so greedy and just served their devices owners, we could have had both...

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