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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#551

Post by naikrovek »

Zenbit_UX wrote: post #539
shados wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the cut is basically irrelevant. It's the power Apple/Google holds that's a problem.

No, it's highly relevant. Consider Spotify vs Apple music. If Spotify has to charge X + 30% to subscriber's on iPhone in order to make X then they absolutely can't compete on price if Apple simply charges X.

It's not relevant. The cut taken is not the point. It's that the app store is the only avenue onto an iOS device. EVERY OTHER meaningful computing platform (that is, not solely a gaming device) has multiple avenues to acquire and install software. Not iOS, and that's the issue.

I don't know why I keep expecting users here to understand this. It's not going to happen.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#552

Post by smiley1437 »

causality0 wrote: post #533
dwaite wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple never threatened the developmental licenses of anyone using the Unreal Engine. They said they would remove all Epic access to developer program tools (e.g. beta access to operating systems and Xcode) and to partner programs (presumably for advance hardware testing). This would have a second-hand effect on Epic's ability to provide timely updates to their engine and remain competitive to alternatives like Unreal…

They threatened the supply chain. Would they do that to a normal developer? If you're a developer and one of your apps is found to violate an app store rule does Apple remove not only that app but also all your developer credentials and licenses? I imagine Apple just removes that app do they not?

I was fortunate enough to watch the Zoom of the hearing - the Apple lawyer claimed that in cases of breach, it is normal for Apple to disable all related developer accounts to limit the offender's ability to 'hide' behind alternate accounts.

In this case, the two accounts in question (the one for Fortnite and the one for Unreal engine), while on paper are separate entities, were paid for by the same person, using the same credit card number - so that was Apple's justification for removing both.

As the order shows, the judge still felt it was overreach.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#553

Post by fomine3 »

sfifs wrote: post #529
dwaite wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple never threatened the developmental licenses of anyone using the Unreal Engine. They said they would remove all Epic access to developer program tools (e.g. beta access to operating systems and Xcode) and to partner programs (presumably for advance hardware testing). This would have a second-hand effect on Epic's ability to provide timely updates to their engine and remain competitive to alternatives like Unreal…

It was foolish for Apple to retaliate IMO. I think this example will be used in multiple litigations to paint a picture for jury that Apple operates in bad faith and anti-competitively. I am also certain Steve Jobs emails from the eBook trial fiasco will be coming up. Apple is likely going down if this goes to trial. Their best interests lie in settling before trial but it doesn't seem Epic is looking to settle.

I'm very curious why very smart law team in Apple allows banning Epic's account. This action would works bad for antitrust lawsuit.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#554

Post by ece »

unknown2374 wrote: post #505
mrich wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point the platform has to be considered common infrastructure, similar to power transmission lines, the railroad or the Windows OS. Just because you happened to build a successful platform should not imply that you can hold everyone hostage - that is why antitrust is a thing.

There are open platforms, and due to convenience of distribution developers have reluctantly chosen these platforms over open ones. Now while I am not defending Apple's position here, developers who have chosen to distribute only on such platforms for the past few decades are partly to blame too. The success of Apple (etc.) are due to choices that developers have made, closing themselves in and then citing anti-trust…

While this is even more true for consoles, the difference is in a specific purpose vs a general purpose.

General purpose platforms that become overly closed have roundly been rejected or been forced to open up: Carterfone, AOL, Windows, carrier locked phones, etc.. even iOS itself didn't allow apps at first and now does.

Closed platforms for a specific purpose like consoles, kindles, rokus, etc.. do a bit better because they are 1) more likely to have competitors, and 2) have more limited impact from being specific purpose platforms, though are still capable of maintaining monopolies/duopolies.

The phone market is a iOS/Android duopoly, and both are being forced to open up more. Hardly surprising.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#555

Post by wcarey »

badsectoracula wrote: post #510
wcarey wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.

You may see this as a solution, however this (non-)solution creates larger problems by itself as i have repeatedly mentioned in these comments.

I'm not convinced the problems are larger (or, at least, not that they're larger for most people; some people are seriously inconvenience by Apple's policies. I once hit a hard roadblock trying to develop something for the iPhone and had to switch to Android exclusive development; so it goes). And I think having different organizations exploring different tradeoffs in this space is a valuable thing. There are platforms that are more open that Apples and platforms less open. That variety is healthy.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#556

Post by marakv2 »

Humdeee wrote: post #287
marakv2 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that allowing another app store will ruin your iPhone? That's incorrect. Just don't use it.

> Just don't use it What's the argument here, why not just don't use an iPhone then? Why turn an iPhone into more of an Android? I have an iPhone because I don't want to be like an Android. It's a feature to me that this (and other possibilities, bad and good) is not possible, hence why I bought it.

Your essentially saying, you won't use hardware x because software y is available. Allowing me to use software y does not impact you.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#557

Post by Thorentis »

stale2002 wrote: post #548
Thorentis wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am on board with the internet being common infrastructure, since you cannot own your own fibre cable that goes to the ISP (at least not easily and cheaply). With hardware it is different. Nobody forced you to buy an iPhone. Nobody forced you to buy an Android, Windows, Nokia, whatever phone. Same with laptops. If you want an open platform, buy one. If you want an open OS, install one. Don't buy an iPhone, complain…

Would you make the same claim about Internet Explorer? Imagine if Microsoft required a 30 percent cut for any transaction that is done on a windows PC. The same exact arguments you are using could justify this. But, obviously, this is illegal, and similar behavior was proven as such, by the courts.

Internet Explorer was already ubiquitous at that point. The iPhone was not ubiquitous when the App Store was released. The iPhone become so widely used because of the popularity of the App Store. The 30% cut was there from the very start, and people were fine with it. It's only now that people are turning around and complaining that a platform that was never open to begin with, is not open enough.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#558

Post by stale2002 »

Thorentis wrote: post #557
stale2002 wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you make the same claim about Internet Explorer? Imagine if Microsoft required a 30 percent cut for any transaction that is done on a windows PC. The same exact arguments you are using could justify this. But, obviously, this is illegal, and similar behavior was proven as such, by the courts.

Internet Explorer was already ubiquitous at that point. The iPhone was not ubiquitous when the App Store was released. The iPhone become so widely used because of the popularity of the App Store. The 30% cut was there from the very start, and people were fine with it. It's only now that people are turning around and complaining that a platform that was never open to begin with, is not open enough.

> The iPhone was not ubiquitous when the App Store was released.

But it is ubiquitous now. As of last month, the iphone now has 52.4% of the US market.

> The 30% cut was there from the very start, and people were fine with it.

Anticompetitive behavior become illegal when a company has enough market power.

> It's only now that people are turning around and complaining

Well yes, that is how anti-competitive laws work. If a company has enough market power, previously legal practices can become illegal.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#559

Post by Hamuko »

cwhiz wrote: post #541
Hamuko wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What industry? Because I don't see gaming consoles being part of the same industry as smartphones.

Digital app/game distribution.

Then what about pretty much every personal computer on the planet? They don't have these kinds of restrictions. How does that play into the whole "industry standard"?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#560

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

cma wrote: post #204
xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? In what way is Steam on Linux in any way similar to Google Play Services on Android? Steam on Linux is mostly compatibility hacks so people can play the games they bought. Some games have decent Linux support, but the real value I see in Steam on Linux is all the proton/wine magic/hacks to make games work relatively well without any changes, and frankly it's great. The rate at which Wine/Proton et al., and Linux…

> In what way is Steam on Linux in any way similar to Google Play Services on Android? Steamworks. > I have no idea what you mean by this, but I also don't see what the GPL has to do with it. You can easily write GPL software that you sell on Steam which uses all of Valve's features. Steamworks is needed for that and isn't GPL compatible. You can sell GPL software on Steam, but can't use many features and are isolate…

This is borderline FUD. You don't need to use Steamworks to publish a Steam game. With respect to games, most commercial licenses also have these same restrictions, e.g. Unreal Engine.

This seems fine, GPL is probably not suitable here. I don't think Valve is going out of their way to harm anyone's freedoms.

If you really want to release your game as GPL, then do the usual workarounds: use a shim which RPC's to the proprietary bit.

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