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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#501

Post by mlindner »

hellisothers wrote: post #140

I find a lot of the comments here split down “I want app regulation because I feel it provides a layer of safety and safety is good for the consumer” vs “I want more freedom and choice because choice is good and is better for the consumer”. Which brings to mind two things This sounds similar to the current brouhaha happening in the US over America’s inclination towards personal freedom at all cost even when govt regu…

> This aspect feels like the problem in the US of big business battling for deregulation which... isn’t always so great.

Big businesses actually battle for narrow carveouts of existing regulations along with the addition of more regulations that are easy for them to handle but hard for newer entrants to handle. Big businesses actually like regulations as long as they're carefully crafted to already match whatever outdated practices they're already following, to hamper competition. Most of this has already happened in the past which is why we have companies like Boeing now who cannot innovate anymore.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#502

Post by hundchenkatze »

saagarjha wrote: post #473
dwaite wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you must agree to the Xcode and Apple SDKs Agreement to use Xcode and production SDKs, which is a click-through when starting Xcode. You must agree to an Apple Developer Program License Agreement to sign and distribute applications and to get access to pre-release SDKs.

Don't you need to be registered in the developer program to sign your code for Apple's embedded platforms?

You do, but if I built a game using Unreal Engine then I'd be using my developer account to sign my game.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#503

Post by mlindner »

mantap wrote: post #105
dep_b wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but any developer can have his or her own account that gives access to every tool, only for pushing software to the store it's vital to have that one particular account for Epic. Epic will lose perks like direct access to performance tuning teams at Apple, but that's not something you can't do without. So "difficult" would mean that you need to improvise a bit, but they're still able to develop just like any deve…

Legally Epic would lose access to all Apple developer IP including iOS SDKs and Xcode. You have to click through an EULA to access this stuff. And you can bet that Apple would have sought a court order to enforce it, had they prevailed.

Just a note, this isn't past tense. The court case is only beginning. This was only about the initial injunction. The court just told Apple and Epic "cool it, stop fighting each other in public and harming your customers, fight each other in court".

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#504

Post by toyg »

kergonath wrote: post #362
gtsteve wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I don't think they're doomed, but I think this measure will provide ammunition to those who want to sideload apps and make their own app stores, which is presumably what Epic wants. I think this has been inevitable for some time, but I think by making this mistake they have they they've accelerated the process and damaged their monopoly far earlier than they had to. Note: Perhaps I am just seeing what I…

You might be right; in any case we won’t see it for a while. I think reform of the AppStore is overdue. Some of the rules are counterproductive and with enough of a grey area so that their implementation looks capricious at times. But man, Tim Sweeney is such an arsehole, and Epic’s behaviour is so self-serving...

> Tim Sweeney is such an arsehole, and Epic’s behaviour is so self-serving

I have flashbacks of the original iPhone release and the hate it got from established gatekeeping ISPs. "Man, Steve Jobs can be such an arsehole, and Apple's behaviour is so self-serving", but in the end they did the world a favour by pushing back greedy carriers a little bit, forcing them to accept the possibility of distributing largely-untainted smartphones. Kinda the same with iTunes.

Progress is made by unreasonable and often unsympathetic people who are clearly looking after their own self-interest, which ends up actually matching the general interest. I think this is one of those.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#505

Post by unknown2374 »

mrich wrote: post #497
Thorentis wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forcing Epic to use Apple's platform though. It never used to be the case, that every device you own must be able to play every game you want. You can already play Fortnite on your PC. Apple cannot stop you from owning a PC, so Apple cannot stop you from playing Fortnite. Yes, Apple is a gatekeeper for its platform. But we've known this forever. Sony is a gatekeeper for the playstation, and Microsoft is a g…

At some point the platform has to be considered common infrastructure, similar to power transmission lines, the railroad or the Windows OS. Just because you happened to build a successful platform should not imply that you can hold everyone hostage - that is why antitrust is a thing.

There are open platforms, and due to convenience of distribution developers have reluctantly chosen these platforms over open ones. Now while I am not defending Apple's position here, developers who have chosen to distribute only on such platforms for the past few decades are partly to blame too.

The success of Apple (etc.) are due to choices that developers have made, closing themselves in and then citing anti-trust when they themselves locked the doors and gave away the keys.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#507

Post by saagarjha »

hundchenkatze wrote: post #502
saagarjha wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you need to be registered in the developer program to sign your code for Apple's embedded platforms?

You do, but if I built a game using Unreal Engine then I'd be using my developer account to sign my game.

Yeah, but as a developer of Unreal Engine itself I'd like to be able to test it on iPhone…

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#508

Post by nodamage »

Betelgeuse90 wrote: post #355

Some of my highlights: - "Irreparable Harm: The issue of irreparable harm focuses on the harm caused by not maintaining the status quo, as opposed to the separate and distinct element of a remedy under the likelihood of success factor. Here the court's evaluation is guided by the general notion that “self-inflicted wounds are not irreparable injury.” - "While the Court anticipates experts will opine that Apple’s 30 p…

Another key quote:

"Epic brings ten claims for violations of Sherman Act, the California Cartwright Act, and California Unfair Competition. Based on a review of the current limited record before the Court, the Court cannot conclude that Epic has met the high burden of demonstrating a likelihood of success on the merits, especially in the antitrust context. However, the Court also concludes that serious questions do exist. Indeed, the Court related this action to the Cameron action because there are overlapping questions of facts and law, including substantively similar claims based on the same Apple App Store policies: namely, the 30% fee that Apple takes from developers through each application sale and IAP in the application."

The judge also commented the case is not a slam dunk for either side.

I expect the case is going to hinge on whether or not Epic can successfully convince the judge that the market of "iOS App Distribution" is in fact a valid antitrust market. This is not something that can simply be assumed, as US courts have generally been reluctant to allow antitrust markets to be defined in the context of a single brand's product unless specific circumstances are met. If Epic can't establish "iOS App Distribution" as the relevant market then the court will instead look at Apple's market power in the overall smartphone market, which will make Epic's case more difficult as Apple lacks monopoly power in that market.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#509

Post by badsectoracula »

hellisothers wrote: post #258
badsectoracula wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As i wrote in another comment, those comparisons 99.9% of the time lose a ton of details so they are not helpful at all. The choice for others to have no choice is not really much of a choice - not only i want to have a choice in what i install on iOS devices but i also want the ability to have a choice available in all of the devices i paid for, especially in an environment where other companies see Apple's success…

You’re framing your preference for openness as a choice and another’s preference for regulation as “having no choice” which is exactly the problem I was trying to highlight. You see your option as the only option so all others are a mistake, and so are dictating what options are available (is only yours). Do you not see this is removing people’s choice? Especially if already today there are other ecosystems that cate…

I do not make such a framing, the choice i describe is about what to install in your device - this assumes the ability is already there. I do not refer to having the ability itself as a choice.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#510

Post by badsectoracula »

wcarey wrote: post #161
badsectoracula wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah i see, i thought you were comparing employers forcing you to install something with Apple forcing everyone to go through their App Store. Well, in that case, if employers force you to install something then just tell them give you a work phone. Or talk to them, you are adults. And if that doesn't work, well, tough luck. This sounds like trying to solve a malfunctioning workplace problem by making everyone else suf…

Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.

You may see this as a solution, however this (non-)solution creates larger problems by itself as i have repeatedly mentioned in these comments.
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