Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#261

Post by michaelt » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #239

ericmay wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I definitely think it's in my interest and the interest of the vast majority of iPhone users to have Apple make these decisions. I'd rather every developer leave the App Store than switch away from the current model. I'd just use Apple's built-in apps.

So how does choice prevent you from doing that? Mac apps do just fine with other install options while most still choose the App Store for ease and security.

Sometimes you get a better deal when you have fewer options.

For example, iPhone/iPad users being unable to install Adobe Flash accelerated its demise hugely, by motivating websites to remove Flash, not just add 'please install' links.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#262

Post by yupyup54133 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

I'm confused. Why doesn't Apple just use their "Termination for Convenience" clause that lets them terminate any contract with a 30 day notice?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#263

Post by bananaface » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #260

bananaface wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes people buying Apple devices did it because they want a walled garden. I don't think that's true, I think it's the opposite. Most users dislike it. Obtuse example: I think the vast majority of Fortnite players would have (much) preferred to pay Epic's cheaper rate.

At least according to many iPhone owners in this thread, that is precisely why they bought an iPhone. It's also one of the many reasons that I did not.

Hacker News commentators aren't typical users. But tbh I'm skeptical of how many of those comments are organic.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#264

Post by a2tech » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #5

A victory for sanity. Apple threatening developmental licenses and anyone who used the Unreal Engine was nothing short of mafia-esque, and just as obviously Fortnite being restored to the app store is a matter for Epic's lawsuit against apple.

Isn't this still an Epic issue? Basically if Epic delivered their engine to their customers as source code and NOT as a compiled binary couldn't the customers build the engine and include it in their App Store submission? But since Epic is trying to deliver the compiled engine to their customer (signed with their dev keys) thats where the problem comes in?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#265

Post by 627467 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

If Apple wanted (and they probably are doing it) they could heavily delay the approval of any apps that make use of an engine they seem "risky"... Effectively increasing the costs of those developers using "rogue" engines.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#266

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #250

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of choice, like which store to buy their Epic Game Store exclusive games at... oh wait.

The switching cost between launchers on PC is negligible, compared to phones where it's a massive undertaking. That said, in the context of user freedoms I think it's fair to not support Epic (in part, for their actions towards exclusive games) at the same time as supporting Epic (in part, for their actions on mobile platforms).

I don't think it is. While I may agree with the goal of open platforms, I don't for one moment believe that Epic cares at all about that goal and I do not believe their method of intentionally violating TOS and using propaganda to direct a raging horde of children at Apple is the right way to go about it.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#267

Post by skohan » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #126

skohan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows, Apple and Chromebooks are all proprietary platforms. With PC you also have the choice to install Linux, which is the categorical difference. With smartphones there's not really an open choice available.

Even though that's kinda sad, I don't expect to see any (relevant, mass-market, used by the general public) truly open alternative in the foreseeable future. The market just doesn't seem to be there for it. On PCs, already pretty much no one uses Linux outside of tech bubbles (and even there, seems like it's behind both Windows and macOS [0]), apparently somewhere around 1-2% [1] among the general population; in prac…

It would be a challenge to gain a foothold for sure. I suspect the way in would be to have a way to support Android apps (I believe windows phone was doing this for a while?)

As far as malware, I’m not sure why it would be more of an issue on an open platform than it would on Android. I use Linux as a daily driver, and as long as you’re getting software from trusted sources, it’s not much of a concern. I don’t see why it would be different on mobile.

And with regard to you comments about ease of use, I’m not saying an open phone OS should be the only option, or that it should even be the dominant platform. For most people it probably makes sense to go with a widely supported platform which is safe and easy to use. But it would be nice if there was an alternative available for power users, and people who want to experiment with radically different concepts of how to use a smartphone.

Smartphones are basically the main computers people use nowadays. It’s just kind of a shame you have to go through a corporation to use one.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#268

Post by yyyk » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

wcarey wrote: post #160

dgellow wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- I don't think it's fair to compare Apple's position to a "collective bargaining". What they are doing is defending their moat from competing offering, they are defending one of their source of control and revenue. If there would be a bargain, who would be facing them? Developers? If Apple is in position to dictate what they want with no discussions, it's not a bargain. - Even if other app stores are available (or s…

The bargaining is between users and developers. Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users, who have accepted increasingly onerous terms and privacy policies because individual users are not in a good bargaining position. Apple, in contrast, is in a bargaining position to negotiate terms of use on behalf of its users with developers. For example, if I purchase a subscription to a langua…

>my ability to seamlessly cancel that subscription has been collectively bargained by Apple

Bargained for Apple's benefit, not yours.

The end result is that if you ever for any reason want to manage the subscription without an Apple device, you can't. Which directly feeds into the premium they charge you for their devices. It also means that the vendor is forced to implement Apple Payments, and the surcharge is ultimately paid by you.

You may have lost money due to subscriptions* , but you are definitely losing money to Apple.

* It's easy where I live to call the credit company and block the charge, and the credit company doesn't take 30%.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#269

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

bananaface wrote: post #263

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least according to many iPhone owners in this thread, that is precisely why they bought an iPhone. It's also one of the many reasons that I did not.

Hacker News commentators aren't typical users. But tbh I'm skeptical of how many of those comments are organic.

> Hacker News commentators are not typical users.

You're right, they're at least 10x as arrogant as the typical population. For instance, most people probably do not assume their customers are idiots who make purchasing decisions without understanding the consequences, even if that is often true.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#270

Post by diebeforei485 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

yupyup54133 wrote: post #262

I'm confused. Why doesn't Apple just use their "Termination for Convenience" clause that lets them terminate any contract with a 30 day notice?

Two points- (1) Presumably Apple wanted to try to send a very quick message to others to not try to make similar moves (and to reassure other developers that Epic wasn't getting a special deal) instead of waiting 30 days.

(2) I've said this before and it's important to understand this: just because a contract says Apple can do something (terminate the contract with Unreal Engine), that does not mean they can do it. If that were the case, the entire field of Contract Law need not exist.