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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#161

Post by wcarey »

badsectoracula wrote: post #157
wcarey wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't a comparison. If 3rd party app stores are a thing, you might be compelled to use them by yet other third parties, contrary to your claim that no one would force you to use third party app stores.

Ah i see, i thought you were comparing employers forcing you to install something with Apple forcing everyone to go through their App Store. Well, in that case, if employers force you to install something then just tell them give you a work phone. Or talk to them, you are adults. And if that doesn't work, well, tough luck. This sounds like trying to solve a malfunctioning workplace problem by making everyone else suf…

Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#162

Post by wayneftw »

ericmay wrote: post #51
badsectoracula wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is having control over what you can install on your own PC and being in a position to actually choose from where to install it a nightmare? Is being in control and having choice a nightmare?

Well, you just look at the PC ecosystem and you can see the nightmare. Like others,I prefer Apple to have a tightly controlled App Store and believe that the benefits far outweigh the ability to install software from a 3rd party App Store. For example, Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stor…

I’ve been running PCs and Macs in my house for over 2 decades. I have not once had a problem with viruses.

Most of my problems have been with restrictions that Apple has put on me in their Mac and iOS product lines.

> Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stores.

Yes it is. You, as a consumer can choose to stay in the Apple app store where developers have to follow that rule. If a particular developer is only publishing in the non-Apple app store, you can simply use a competing app that is in Apple’s app store. This is the same advice you’d give to someone who doesn’t like Apple products at all... you’d say “Go buy an Android”. In the future though, you’ll only have to say “Go use a non-Apple app store”.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#163

Post by wcarey »

badsectoracula wrote: post #159
wcarey wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there are two assumptions underlying your argument: 1. Users have perfect choice in which apps they install. 2. Developers will release their apps on all available app stores. But many users are compelled to install apps that they would prefer not to and it's not at all obvious that developers would support two app stores instead of one given the choice. The net result of that combination is that some (…

No, i have no such assumptions. Developers can and some may even will (though market forces will push at least one app store to be the dominant - chances are it'll be the one that comes out of the box with the device) focus on a single app store and there is nothing wrong with that. The only wrong part is users not being in control over what they can install on their devices and from where they will install them. Yes…

That seems like a concession that people who currently enjoy the first-party-only app store situation may indeed lose something if third-party-app-stores become a thing.

You can argue (as I think you are) that those losses are outweighed by the gains of a more open ecosystem, but to many users they are meaningful losses.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#164

Post by wayneftw »

wcarey wrote: post #138
badsectoracula wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see a nightmare, that is the thing - why do you see one? What you describe is possible with multiple app stores and allowing 3rd party apps - you just do not use those other stores and apps. Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. You can keep your tightly controlled experience by not using anything else than Apple - but that doesn't mean e…

> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. Many employers do that very thing. How many people have been compelled by employment circumstances to install Zoom despite its dubious pedigree? What happens when a corporate timecard app exists only in a 3rd party app store?

You can go work somewhere else too.

Having a choice is better than not having one, all around.

You can argue the changing employers is hard. I can also argue that 50% of my customers use iPhones and so I have to use one and know how they work. I literally cannot have an app business without dealing with Apple. That’s why this is an anti-trust situation.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#165

Post by foxdev »

skc wrote: post #110
IvanK_net wrote: post #20

I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. I think we should speak more about this fact, so that people think twice before they buy some device. I only make websites, but I am worried, that at some point, Apple would want me to pay them, so that my website is openable on their devices.

Heh, I'm at this point waiting patiently for Apple to wage war on PWAs as they start to gain in popularity.

The original vision for the iPhone was as a console for loading web apps.

https://www.macstories.net/stories/before-the-app-store-the-...

https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-...

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#166

Post by cwhiz »

Hamuko wrote: post #92
cwhiz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about the Xbox, PS4, and Nintendo Switch? Oh, the iPhone? Yeah people don’t care. Having Apple vet apps is a benefit, not a curse.

Out of those examples, the only ones properly vetting apps are Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo and Apple are notorious for peddling shitty apps to consumers.

The parent was complaining about Apple being a filter on the apps that users can install on their phones. But that type of restriction is basically the industry norm.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#167

Post by bananaface »

pjmlp wrote: post #122
bananaface wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're trying to establish a precedent that would limit all monopolistic behaviour, including theirs. Obviously their motivations are to make it easier for them to compete, but it won't make it easier for them to become a monopoly.

20% global market share isn't a monopoly.

Doesn't matter, the behaviour is still monopolistic, but even if we cede that point it's absolutely a duopoly. Fortnite is also banned on Google play, they've lost access to over 90% of the mobile market. The Sherman Act isn't about being a monopoly, it's about exploiting an unfair degree of leverage.

But either way that's not my point. Epic establishing a precedent that restricts the degree to which companies can dominate a supply line and then use that position to skim isn't going to make it easier for Epic to dominate you, the consumer. That's not their objective. That is Apple's objective.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#168

Post by toyg »

wcarey wrote: post #160
dgellow wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- I don't think it's fair to compare Apple's position to a "collective bargaining". What they are doing is defending their moat from competing offering, they are defending one of their source of control and revenue. If there would be a bargain, who would be facing them? Developers? If Apple is in position to dictate what they want with no discussions, it's not a bargain. - Even if other app stores are available (or s…

The bargaining is between users and developers. Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users, who have accepted increasingly onerous terms and privacy policies because individual users are not in a good bargaining position. Apple, in contrast, is in a bargaining position to negotiate terms of use on behalf of its users with developers. For example, if I purchase a subscription to a langua…

> Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users

And who do we have to thank for that turn? Apple's culture that "we know better" is a good part of that problem. Developers want to be Apple, and Apple is pretty abusive towards their users. They take the occasional pro-user stance where it suits them, but overall it's pretty clear that the only institutional interest for Apple is Apple's own bottom line.

Here you're effectively defending an absolutist monarch: he can take a good decision here and there, maybe even give you a decade or two of peace and prosperity, but in the long run his family will inevitably do what is good for them, not for the country. Democracy is messy, unstable, often dangerous, but in the long run is more sustainable for the ecosystem at large.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#169

Post by wcarey »

wayneftw wrote: post #164
wcarey wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. Many employers do that very thing. How many people have been compelled by employment circumstances to install Zoom despite its dubious pedigree? What happens when a corporate timecard app exists only in a 3rd party app store?

You can go work somewhere else too. Having a choice is better than not having one, all around. You can argue the changing employers is hard. I can also argue that 50% of my customers use iPhones and so I have to use one and know how they work. I literally cannot have an app business without dealing with Apple. That’s why this is an anti-trust situation.

In the same way, though, that you can suggest I work somewhere else, I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform, so that doesn't seem to advance the argument very much? Plenty of folks make a living on the web or by selling Windows or Linux software.

Having choice about some things is better than not having one, all around. But some people choose (!) to delegate their choosing to others in certain fields. For example, the choice of whether to purchase safe meat or unsafe meat is a bad choice to have. It's doubly bad if you aren't skilled at determining the safety quality of meat. That's a choice I'm happy to outsource to a third party. Similarly, I'm happy to outsource a variety of choices about app terms of use to Apple.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#170

Post by Analemma_ »

hhjinks wrote: post #117
ericmay wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you’d see is not much in the way of price decreases or increased availability of apps, but more dark patterns, malware, and anti-privacy measures. Apple basically collectively bargains for iPhone users via the App Store. Privacy features, sign-in with Apple, limiting tracking abuse, privacy “Nutrition Facts” and other items will go out the window. Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will…

I sure love having a faceless trillion-dollar company making choices for me to try to keep me and my device safe.

This, except unironically. I am just one person, who has no leverage whatsoever against companies using dark patterns and scamware. I like having someone with sufficient leverage fighting in my corner.

If you don't want that, that's totally fine: Android is right over there.

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