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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

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Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#251

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

vorpalhex wrote: post #208
TeaDrunk wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says that on the books that you’re allowed to defend against excessive force, but they’ll still charge you for assault for bleeding on their uniform. (And then only retract this when the media outcry becomes too difficult to ignore.)

Being charged is not the same as being found guilty. Cops are not lawyers or judges.

Being charged is enough to hold you for 3 days, as well as to put you on probation for a couple months afterwards, even if the charges are dropped. This happened to a friend of mine when he was frustrated with an inland border control roadblock and didn't want to answer the questioning officer. He did not resist, was not violent in any way. He simply politely declined to answer.

In the end it cost him over a grand to get his car back and to pay for drug tests required by the probation. Again, he was never actually charged with anything.

Policing in this nation is fundamentally broken. The bad cops know how to use the system to brutalize people without consequences, and the rest of the police close ranks and protect them while they do it.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#252

Post by fareesh »

rbanffy wrote: post #240
fareesh wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Policemen do one of the toughest jobs in society, especially in places where crime is high. Society owes them a great debt for enforcing the law because there are some hard criminals out there who would run amok if a weak and ineffective police force were the norm. Armchair criticism of the police with zero consideration for their point of view is not helpful to anyone, most of all victims of crimes.

They do, and this is precisely why we must prosecute the bad policemen with extreme rigor. We allow them to use lethal force against our fellow people on the condition they do so only as a last resort and in order to protect society. We should not forget that condition.

Definitely but the conversation is about the use of ketamine, not prosecution of bad policemen, which everyone universally condemns.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#253

Post by pessimizer »

Natsu wrote: post #201
tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Of course it's a catch-all term, there's no way to tell offhand just what street drugs someone is on. There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down. Also, there's no mention in this article of police directing the paramedics to do anything. Can you point me to what gave you that idea?

> There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down.

This is the kind of rationalization that gets policies like this instituted. Having to be held down by six people isn't a requirement for being diagnosed with "excided delirium," anything is sufficient, because it's not a falsifiable diagnosis. The look in someone's eye can be enough. Talking back can be enough.

Also, by "enough," I mean enough for people who are already reactionaries of the law and order type to rationalize it. If it happened to a hypothetical white guy in some office complaining about his tax bill (who also showed no aggression and only tested positive for trace amounts of marijuana), could you imagine that people would still be alluding to "some reason" why "excited delirium" was actually a cool and reasonable diagnosis?

I mean, this is a violinist massage therapist who volunteered at animal shelters. This event is just more evidence that video will neither save you nor avenge you. You're as likely to be able to keep law enforcement from injecting ketamine into you on a whim as you are to keep law enforcement from being able to search your person or your car. With "There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down," the reaction justifies itself.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#254

Post by FireBeyond »

axaxs wrote: post #28
tomcam wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any idea how many medical procedures cops are trained on? It’s a lot. They aren’t doctors but they are required to assist medically and stabilize until EMT arrives.

Specifically no, but I do know they are trained. That said, training is just that. If you see X, do Y. And sure, net, it's a positive thing. But again, they aren't medical doctors. It's not always IF THEN. Oftentimes it's IF AND NOT THEN. Either way, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of arguing life saving procedures. My entire point is that we should not be injecting people with non emergency drugs like Ketamine…

> My entire point is that we should not be injecting people with non emergency drugs like Ketamine.

Instead your argument seems to be that we should be subjecting people to significant risk from rhabdo, hyperthermia, which to be clear can be entirely significant.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#255

Post by dirtnugget »

fortran77 wrote: post #170
dirtnugget wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

Police in the U.S. are usually extremely overweight. They might not know that a healthy 5'10 adult should weigh 150 pounds.

That seems like an overly generalised thing to say.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#256

Post by pessimizer »

jupp0r wrote: post #212
tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

On the other hand: at least they are asking medical professionals instead of giving shots themselves.

Which is what would start happening if professional medical associations banned the practice.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#257

Post by john_moscow »

throwanem wrote: post #246
john_moscow wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've googled up the bodycam videos of the incident [0]. I think, the police started acting the way they did, because the suspect didn't stop when the police clearly asked him to do so, and pushed one of the officers when they grabbed him. It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Ncye…

Dude, I hit a cop with my car one time and I didn't get so much as stopped . So yeah. It's different.

May you share some details on that, because, with all due respect, it sounds unrealistic. Unless you've omitted some big piece of the puzzle.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#258

Post by dirtnugget »

bsanr2 wrote: post #146
dirtnugget wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

The uncomfortable truth is that authorities regularly misidentify black men as being bigger/taller/older/darker than they actually are. Whether that's an issue specific to police indoctrination or to American culture in general, it's clearly part of what happened here. Apologies to the HN users who will be incensed at the notion of race playing a role in this situation.

Even today a common misconception among white doctors is that black people have thicker skin than white people or even that their nerv endings are less sensitive.

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-we-fail-black-patient...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#260

Post by pessimizer »

wonderwonder wrote: post #121
dirtnugget wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

I would be really surprised if they estimated this poorly and would guess they were just irritated by him and decided to up the dose as punishment. If I am wrong then they receive zero training when estimating weight and multiple officers are terrible at it. To mistakenly confuse a 140lb for 220lb is poor judgement to the point that it strains credulity.

It doesn't strain credulity for me. Most descriptions of the black victims of police brutality by law enforcement inflate them to a monstrous size, and use animal metaphors to describe their terrifying faces.

Never underestimate the degree to which racism is driven by actual, irrational terror.

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