Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#231

Post by ddingus » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

tmp538394722 wrote: post #178

wittyreference wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" You’re waxing hyperbolic. It’s a sedative drug used in normal human clinical practice, and in many settings is preferable because it has -fewer- risks of complications than other sedatives. And while I’m highly critical of it’s being used without strict medical protocol, I’ve worked psych ED enough to understand that there are occasi…

Elijah McClain was not “ridiculously agitated”. The video shows that police escalated every chance they got. After receiving a phone call of a “suspicious person” they went from in their car to hands on Elijah in less than 10s. In a matter of minutes Elijah was on the ground surrounded by a dozen officers. They’re saying “was he suspected of anything”, “why are we here”? They don’t even know why they’re there... but…

The reason they do that is the policing doctrine changed.

Escalation of force to compliance.

They are literally trained to do that.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#232

Post by john_moscow » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

notassigned wrote: post #197

I don't think it's helpful to assume the police were racist.

I've googled up the bodycam videos of the incident [0]. I think, the police started acting the way they did, because the suspect didn't stop when the police clearly asked him to do so, and pushed one of the officers when they grabbed him.

It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5NcyePEOJ8

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#233

Post by coldtea » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

notassigned wrote: post #197

I don't think it's helpful to assume the police were racist.

By this point we don't have to assume it.

And it's not even up to the individual, racism is systemic in police, part of their everyday talk, their (real, not lip service) training discussions, their protocols, etc.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#234

Post by p0llard » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #211

p0llard wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a country where we don't inject people with ketamine on the street, nor do "criminals run amok". We also don't have armed gangs imposing "their own idea of a justice system", and we have fewer police killings in 25 years than the US has in 25 days. I imagine your comment is probably symptomatic of the major societal issues within the US; it certainly worsens the image of the US to those fortunate enough to…

What country is that? And, you realize that the US has 300m people, correct? You will have to compare per-capita stats, not total numbers.

> And, you realize that the US has 300m people, correct? You will have to compare per-capita stats, not total numbers.

The UK has a population of almost 70MM. The factor of ~5 needed to account for population pales in comparison to the two orders of magnitude difference between 25 days and 25 years.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#235

Post by hnlurker » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #213

tmp538394722 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elijah McClain was not “ridiculously agitated”. The video shows that police escalated every chance they got. After receiving a phone call of a “suspicious person” they went from in their car to hands on Elijah in less than 10s. In a matter of minutes Elijah was on the ground surrounded by a dozen officers. They’re saying “was he suspected of anything”, “why are we here”? They don’t even know why they’re there... but…

> They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack. And this, for the benefit of folks here who still want to treat these incidents as individual aberrations, is what BLM is about. Sure, police can be good or bad, sometimes make mistakes, etc... But POLICING , as it is practiced in this…

This, oh and green new deal, oh and palestine, oh and destroy nuke family, oh and..... please.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#236

Post by hnlurker » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

fareesh wrote: post #225

Yc4win wrote: post #151

To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.

Policemen do one of the toughest jobs in society, especially in places where crime is high. Society owes them a great debt for enforcing the law because there are some hard criminals out there who would run amok if a weak and ineffective police force were the norm. Armchair criticism of the police with zero consideration for their point of view is not helpful to anyone, most of all victims of crimes.

Well said.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#237

Post by coldtea » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #232

notassigned wrote: post #197

I don't think it's helpful to assume the police were racist.

I've googled up the bodycam videos of the incident [0]. I think, the police started acting the way they did, because the suspect didn't stop when the police clearly asked him to do so, and pushed one of the officers when they grabbed him. It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Ncye…

>It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently.

What about if the white person in the same situation wasn't even asked to stop in the first place?

It's not just about "how police treats blacks vs whites who refuse to stop" but also about "how often police asks blacks vs whites to stop".

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#238

Post by coldtea » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

notassigned wrote: post #219

esperent wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely true. However, there is not much assuming being done. The absolutely stark, clear, and unassailable fact that many police in the US are violent, racist thugs has been repeatedly shoved into my face over the last few months. Not all of them are, by any means. But even the good cops are part of a system that enables and rewards racist, thuggish behavior.

Well I can't argue with that since you said 'many' police in a country of 350+ million people. But what is many? 5? 100? 1000? It's easy to pick these instances and assign blame retrospectively when in reality, things like this almost never happen. If the guy had pulled out a gun and shot the cops in the head, we wouldn't have heard a thing about it. Business as usual.

>It's easy to pick these instances and assign blame retrospectively when in reality, things like this almost never happen.

In reality USA has 3-10x the number of police shootings per capita than a random western country (heck, worse than many developing countries of even dictatorships).

So, yeah, the metrics are off.

If your counter-argument is "yeah, but US has more crime too", then maybe think long and hard if your whole legal system, approach to crime, society goals, etc, are justified then....

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#239

Post by BlueScreenDeath » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

jooize wrote: post #222

alchemism wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen club kids go into what I can only describe as an ‘ambulatory trance state’ at the dosage levels you speak of. I talked down one or two people from completely destroying their environment while in such a state, by using deliberately de-escalatory calming techniques. I’m aghast the police would use such a substance because it is indeed a recipe for disaster when mixed with their expectations of behavior.

Where can I learn de-escalatory calming techniques?

The Internet.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#240

Post by rbanffy » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

fareesh wrote: post #225

Yc4win wrote: post #151

To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.

Policemen do one of the toughest jobs in society, especially in places where crime is high. Society owes them a great debt for enforcing the law because there are some hard criminals out there who would run amok if a weak and ineffective police force were the norm. Armchair criticism of the police with zero consideration for their point of view is not helpful to anyone, most of all victims of crimes.

They do, and this is precisely why we must prosecute the bad policemen with extreme rigor. We allow them to use lethal force against our fellow people on the condition they do so only as a last resort and in order to protect society.

We should not forget that condition.