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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

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Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#21

Post by Trasmatta »

elevenoh wrote: post #15
ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

I imagine there's also got to be a difference between getting it for a planned surgery that you can prepare for, vs having it thrust on you suddenly during a traumatic and painful experience. Kind of hard to let go in that situation.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#22

Post by burfog »

axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that.

Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem.

Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those armed gangs will be far more brutal than our fancy westernized police system.

So we medicalized the problem. That appeases more people than the cheap standardized billy club. We'll just ignore the needle-stick biohazard problem, because at least it won't look like a replay of Rodney King.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#23

Post by DanBC »

robbiep wrote: post #16
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #13

Setting aside the fact that this kind of thing happens at all: How is ketamine the drug of choice?! Although it has a very high active dose:fatal dose (alluded to in other comments), accepted practice for "chemical restraint" is Thorazine+Valium (or equivalent); ketamine is basically never used for behavioral "sedation" by any medical professional.

Our Ed takedown drug is midazolam. I can’t see benzos being safe being given by non-medics. The safety profile of ketamine is excellent (as I’m sure you know) Having said that it blows my mind that it is considered necessary or appropriate to give someone ketamine to restrain them.

Also, aren't police claiming that they only use ketamine for people showing "excited delirium", where benzos are probably contraindicated?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#24

Post by bjo590 »

Trasmatta wrote: post #21
elevenoh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

I imagine there's also got to be a difference between getting it for a planned surgery that you can prepare for, vs having it thrust on you suddenly during a traumatic and painful experience. Kind of hard to let go in that situation.

An arrest sound like one of the worst set and settings to get dosed with ketamine. The person being arrested might not know what they were injected with. The person might not trust the police. The person is being detained against their will.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#25

Post by zwirbl »

Trasmatta wrote: post #21
elevenoh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

I imagine there's also got to be a difference between getting it for a planned surgery that you can prepare for, vs having it thrust on you suddenly during a traumatic and painful experience. Kind of hard to let go in that situation.

And several doses of morphine usually have at least some effect on the body/mind

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#26

Post by anon9001 »

burfog wrote: post #22
axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

I agree that all restraint methods are upsetting, but "inject with dissociative drugs" should really be a lot further down the list than "hit with stick".

Personally, I favor hitting people with billy clubs, because it leaves evidence of what happened and it requires the police to actually take physical action against another human. Giving cops needles full of magic compliance juice seems less responsible to me.

The reason people were upset about Rodney King was because it was brutal and easy to understand. Injecting ketamine is also brutal but it's less visible. I cannot imagine anyone ever getting over the fact that they were restrained by authorities and injected into a k-hole.

They won't be visibly harmed in any way, but that will absolutely mess someone up for life.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#27

Post by throw32890 »

ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

So you were semi-conscious, could communicate, but could not move. I am afraid that is excellent drug to pacify someone. If we defund police and add more women in police force, we will see much wider use.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#28

Post by axaxs »

tomcam wrote: post #20
axaxs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So cops are doctors now? Or EMS even? Neither have any real medical training, at all. No offense meant, EMS grind for little money, but they're not medical doctors. Narcan I was already uneasy about, but it saved real lives in obvious situations. This is absolute lunacy.

Do you have any idea how many medical procedures cops are trained on? It’s a lot. They aren’t doctors but they are required to assist medically and stabilize until EMT arrives.

Specifically no, but I do know they are trained. That said, training is just that. If you see X, do Y. And sure, net, it's a positive thing. But again, they aren't medical doctors. It's not always IF THEN. Oftentimes it's IF AND NOT THEN.

Either way, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of arguing life saving procedures. My entire point is that we should not be injecting people with non emergency drugs like Ketamine.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#29

Post by bjo590 »

tomcam wrote: post #17
sneak wrote: post #2

> Paramedics were called and injected McClain with ketamine, but they incorrectly estimated his weight, giving him more than 1.5 times the dose he should have received. He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. That’s 7.9mg/kg, not nearly enough ketamine to cause cardiac arrest in someone that size. LD50 in humans is at least…

> Abolish the police. Sounds cool. I have had some bad experiences with cops. Suppose someone breaks into your house because of your skin color or political leanings and there are no police. What course of action do you recommend? Spoiler alert. You are also heavily armed.

If someone breaks into your home what do you think police response time will be? 20 minutes? 40 minutes? An attacker can do a lot of damage and run away in that allotted time. The police will just be there to fill out the paper work after the fact.

Whatever course of action you take, do something in addition to or besides call the police.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#30

Post by qppo »

burfog wrote: post #22
axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

yikes.

"Not injecting people with a drug without their consent" is not the equivalent of "let criminals run amok."

I have trouble reconciling the notion that after someone has been restrained to the point where it is considered safe to inject them with a drug, they find it necessary to inject a drug for the purpose of restraint.

It's a bit like placing your knee on the back of someone's neck who is already handcuffed and crying for his mother. Unnecessary, cruel, and dangerous.

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