Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better • Hacker News Board

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#101

Post by austinl » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

vishnugupta wrote: post #90

austinl wrote: post #32

One of my favorite quotes on this topic comes from Aurelius' description of his adopted father in Meditations . [Y]ou would never say of him that he "broke out a sweat": but everything was allotted its own time and thought, as by a man of leisure - his way was unhurried, organized, vigorous, consistent in all . I feel like I spend a lot of time rushing from one thing to the next, constantly questioning whether I'm sp…

> but everything was allotted its own time and thought, as by a man of leisure As an extreme example; watching Schumacher at his peak perform during a qualifying lap or during race, in treacherous rainy conditions, while everyone was absolutely struggling, and him out front, half a lap ahead of everyone was like watching poetry in motion. You could tell he was very relaxed just by the way his hands operated the steer…

as by a man of leisure is my favorite phrase in the passage. I think it's the key to the whole thing. It's implies what kind of mindset you should try to adopt: relax, enjoy what you're doing and appreciate the moment (if you're able to).

Aurelius' adopted father was a consul three times, which is certainly not a stress-free job! But he apparently was able to keep cool by the way he approached his work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_consul

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#102

Post by thrav » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

vishnugupta wrote: post #90

austinl wrote: post #32

One of my favorite quotes on this topic comes from Aurelius' description of his adopted father in Meditations . [Y]ou would never say of him that he "broke out a sweat": but everything was allotted its own time and thought, as by a man of leisure - his way was unhurried, organized, vigorous, consistent in all . I feel like I spend a lot of time rushing from one thing to the next, constantly questioning whether I'm sp…

> but everything was allotted its own time and thought, as by a man of leisure As an extreme example; watching Schumacher at his peak perform during a qualifying lap or during race, in treacherous rainy conditions, while everyone was absolutely struggling, and him out front, half a lap ahead of everyone was like watching poetry in motion. You could tell he was very relaxed just by the way his hands operated the steer…

Time dilation is a real thing. You’re likely describing his experience accurately.

We see it in obviously exaggerated forms in film, like the Matrix, but that’s based on real shit. The best baseball hitters describe seeing the pitch the same way.

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#103

Post by AndrewUnmuted » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

The author writes,

> Arguably, a little friction to slow us down would have enabled both institutions and individuals to make better financial decisions.

But the article fails to bring up the US's rate of interest. If interest rates were allowed to have risen, this would have been just the sort of "slowdown" that the author is looking for.

I find it remarkable that this article could be so insightful, yet lack even a single mentioning of this simple and fundamental fact. Rising interest rates are the market's implementation of precisely what the author is looking for.

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#104

Post by war1025 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #46

This comment thread is making me realize we don't have a good word to distinguish between efficiency as in "we only have 7 hospital beds because that's all we need on 99% of each day" and efficiency as in "we replaced steps X,Y,Z with just step X', because we found that X' could accomplish everything that XYZ could accomplish but it's faster, more accurate, and cheaper". One makes a tradeoff by reducing overheads and…

This seems like it sort of ties in with NN Taleb's idea of "Anti-fragile" [1].

Perhaps also Chesterton's fence [2].

Maybe also the whole premature-optimization thing [3].

And of course the too-clever-by-half coyotes [4].

Really maybe it just comes down to "be wary of making changes that reduce resiliency."

I was hoping to come up with something cohesive with this comment, but really I guess I just agree with what you say.

And I think there are a bunch of people sort of circling around the same idea, which I don't think we've really quite landed on a precise definition of, just as you say.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifragility

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization#When_to_o...

[4] https://www.epsilontheory.com/too-clever-by-half/

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#105

Post by Jtsummers » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #88

Taek wrote: post #46

This comment thread is making me realize we don't have a good word to distinguish between efficiency as in "we only have 7 hospital beds because that's all we need on 99% of each day" and efficiency as in "we replaced steps X,Y,Z with just step X', because we found that X' could accomplish everything that XYZ could accomplish but it's faster, more accurate, and cheaper". One makes a tradeoff by reducing overheads and…

> the other doesn't have any tradeoffs, it's just a better way of doing things based on novel techniques At least in the case of code, this isn't true. The variability comes in terms of change to the system, rather than the running of the system. i.e., if I simplify a process to be less modular and more monolithic, making it more efficient, that also makes it more purpose-built and less flexible. The "risk" increases…

I posted this in a similar thread yesterday:

> Fisher's Fundamental Theorem: The better adapted a system is to a particular environment, the less adaptable it is to new environments. -- Gerald Weinberg,"The Psychology of Computer Programming"

It's something everyone should consider in making critical design decisions. Your adaptable, modular system has some risks (particularly in terms of meeting performance targets, increased cost due to increased complexity), but the monolithic system has its own risks (less adaptable to changing requirements, potentially more fragile against attack or damage). Which you choose depends on many variables including your risk profile and anticipated need for change in the future.

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#106

Post by mc32 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

bschne wrote: post #2

I've found "efficiency as the opposite of stability" a very powerful concept to think about - even though it's fairly simple, it seems to be almost a fundamental law. Whether it's about the economy at large, your own household, a supply chain, what have you - as soon as you optimize for efficiency by removing friction, you take all the slack/damping out of the system and become instantly more liable to catastrophic f…

Also in government. It’s really good that they are slow and inefficient (although it would be nicer if they were less wasteful).

There is little worse than a very efficient government.

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#107

Post by kazinator » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

Same-day delivery isn't efficiency; it's made possible by inefficiency, like using more delivery people and vehicles who cover inefficient routes, and using more warehouses closer to delivery areas.

Actually we can't discuss efficiency without making it clear what parameter we are optimizing, at the cost of what (if any) other parameters.

However, usually, if we reduce the time something takes not by cleverly eliminating, rearranging or otherwise streamlining the steps, but rather by some brute force method that requires more resources (more people, more equpiment, more energy), it is hard to frame that as efficiency.

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#108

Post by Dumblydorr » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

bschne wrote: post #2

I've found "efficiency as the opposite of stability" a very powerful concept to think about - even though it's fairly simple, it seems to be almost a fundamental law. Whether it's about the economy at large, your own household, a supply chain, what have you - as soon as you optimize for efficiency by removing friction, you take all the slack/damping out of the system and become instantly more liable to catastrophic f…

Efficiency is a broad concept. When it comes to energy, I don't consider stability incongruous with efficiency at all: the less you waste over time, the more stable your electricity demand growth, which saves money and improves QoL for citizens.

In general, learning how to do things better can produce efficiency and more stability too, if the way is better all around.

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#109

Post by rdtwo » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #53

neogodless wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think about personal finance, I often think about efficiency. The obvious examples include buying in bulk, avoiding finance charges to optimize what you get for your money, paying insurance up front when the payment options charge extra, and just plain having fewer subscriptions to keep monthly expenses lower and easier to track. All of this efficiency increases financial stability. I suppose if we argue that…

Rather than stability, think of it as robustness or flexibility. Past a certain point, efficiency is an enemy of robustness. Buying in bulk is cool. If you buy a big package of paper towels, it's cheaper and you don't have to worry about running out. The fact that you have a cabinet full of paper towels isn't a big deal. But suppose you find a really great deal on a semi-trailer load of towels and stock up. Now you h…

Just in time is synonymous with always late. Might work well with simple fungible goods but breaks down on complex stuff

Re: Efficiency is dangerous and slowing down makes life better

#110

Post by grasshopperpurp » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #71

milesskorpen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if those two things are as different as you suggest. Multiple steps add redundancy, if you fail one step you can get much of the value from other steps. More steps are frequently added in response to edge cases. Could be a Chesterton’s Fence scenario Instead of bemoaning efficiency, it’d be interesting to reward/value redundancy and antifragility, at least at the system level. I think this could mean tru…

Multiple steps don't always add redundancy, sometimes they're just noise or artifacts. I had a colleague who, when opening a file, would first click on the Windows desktop, then "My Computer", then navigate to the directory, open the file, and close the Explorer window. There was zero redundancy versus leaving the directory open so they could open the next file (or using the application's "Open File" dialog). That is…

Lots of good examples in sports, where wasted movements lead to failure, particularly at the higher levels