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Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

latimes.com

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Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#171

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

diimdeep wrote: post #98
input_sh wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By default it's no more encrypted than HN (as in, traffic to their servers uses TLS, messages on the server are not encrypted at all). There's Secret Chats feature which they claim to be end-to-end encrypted, meaning that it's no more secure than Facebook's Messenger (also end-to-end encrypted in Secret Conversations). Even less so considering that they roll their own encryption (MTProto), while Facebook's Messenger…

And how is Signal's protocol is not "roll their own" ? Sorry I don't know.

The Signal Protocol[0] is based on OTR, a technology which had already seen a number of implementations and informed scrutiny by the time Signal came along.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#172

Post by robjan »

ceeniwer wrote: post #64
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long-preparing revolutionaries need a way to communicate and coordinate with a bunch of people who suddenly see things their way. The government often tries to jam the lines of communication, so some alternate form of communication is often critical.

I wonder why is it that folks in Hong Kong, xinjiang and Tibet can’t effectively work together using telegram to start a massive nation wide riot. There are so many Folks in those regions who are oppressed (millions) and they are being organ harvested, forced to work in factories as slave labor, held in concentration camps, disappeared without trials, and tortured for democratic ideals. Or these folks can coordinate…

The protests in Hong Kong are organised over Telegram but there is not much appetite for rioting thankfully.

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#173

Post by SXX »

baybal2 wrote: post #72
mercacona wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that’s what their website claims. But it isn’t.

Public estimates of his net worth are hard to believe. Not a billionaire, at most 2-3 hundred megabucks cash as his Russian assets are rendered effectively worthless, and he burned himself a lot trying himself in investments, real estate, and, in general, burning money on expensive things, including telegram, like no tomorrow. I am still very suspicious at how he managed to flout around Kremlin for so long.

> I am still very suspicious at how he managed to flout around Kremlin for so long.

His first successful project (VK) was founded and gained popularity partially using money of really weird investors some of whom were related to Kremlin.

Also keep in mind that Russia was just a kleptocracy until around 2008-2010 and only after 2012 when Putin decide to get back presidency everything started to go really sour. So it's not surprise they taken control of the company away from him shortly after.

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#174

Post by bdamm »

brosinante wrote: post #114
75dvtwin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@soufron, I agree with you. It is shameful, to call uprising of suppressed -- against systemic unfairness -- as 'Telegram revolution'. This is akin to stealing valor (basically stealing medals and pretending to be the honorable). This type of valor stealing, is also happening when people call US border detention facilities as 'Nazi concentration camps'. For people whose family members went through a Nazi concentratio…

Calling a detention facility a Nazi concentration camp is not the same as calling a grassroots effort a "telegram revolution". One is making an analogy to history, the other is using a vapid phrase to market a mobile app.

"The medium is the message"

In fact it is a Telegram revolution, because Telegram is the tool that is allowing this rage to become organized. That doesn't minimize anything about the protesting or the political situation itself. That's not marketing, it's just recognizing the tool.

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#175

Post by sam_lowry_ »

skyyler wrote: post #144
input_sh wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, but from my perspective, even if it was absolutely the best end-to-end encryption there is, it wouldn't mean much unless everyone's using Telegram for 1-to-1 communication using Secret Chats feature. > Some of its channels helped unconnected, scattered rallies mature into well-coordinated action. This line alone makes their encryption rather meaningless for this use case, since Secret Chats only work betw…

Which is why I'm confused people are even talking about their encryption in this thread. This has nothing to do with secure chats and everything to do with Telegram's Channels feature. But a ton of people that have never used Telegram nor read the article don't know that.

And proxies. Telegram has great proxy support and virtually anyone can install their own MTProxy in 5 min.

A multitude of proxies, shadow optic cables over the border and a bit of whitelisting from the government to allow payment processing made Telegram invincible.

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#176

Post by stinkytaco »

diimdeep wrote: post #98
input_sh wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By default it's no more encrypted than HN (as in, traffic to their servers uses TLS, messages on the server are not encrypted at all). There's Secret Chats feature which they claim to be end-to-end encrypted, meaning that it's no more secure than Facebook's Messenger (also end-to-end encrypted in Secret Conversations). Even less so considering that they roll their own encryption (MTProto), while Facebook's Messenger…

And how is Signal's protocol is not "roll their own" ? Sorry I don't know.

First of all, most of this goes back five years and things have likely changed, but basically MTProto used several non-standard and out of date security mechanisms (no AE and using SHA1 were fairly notable at the time) whereas Signal was purposing fairly standard and widely used mechanisms (OTR). It's possible that many of those failures have been addressed over the years, but I haven't followed it closely. It's worth noting that Signal has been widely vetted over time and is the underpinning of WhatsApp, whereas MTProto continues to have a poor reputation, it seems.

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#177

Post by SXX »

nitrogen wrote: post #90
iillexial wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tried to block it but didn't really succeed. It continued working although with some glitches.

If any technical details of that block and why it failed emerge, they would be fascinating reading. It also kind of makes one wonder if there's a non-technical reason why blocking it failed.

Real reason is simple: Russian government never actually tried to block it for real. Kremlin could easily force Apple and Google to block the application itself or it's push notification for Russian users, but they never did that.

Of course there was a lot of technical shenanigans going to block their IP addresses and proxy servers, but everyone understood that's is very fruitless attempt.

Oh and they fully unblocked it when Durov's TON network was destroyed by SEC in the US. Very soon after event Telegram official representative went to Kremlin and poof: Telegram is unblocked.

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#178

Post by shawnz »

renewiltord wrote: post #152
shawnz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram provides, at best, equal security and ease-of-use to previously existing solutions like Signal and Whatsapp, and in many cases worse security. Telegram didn't do anything to make this kind of technology more accessible or available. So, the fact that it happens to be a popular solution for encrypted chat right now doesn't really speak to its necessity for any revolution like you and the article seem to be im…

No, you guys always miss the important things. It's that Telegram has social features. It's that Telegram operates under harsher network conditions. It's that other people have Telegram for these reasons. This is the rsync v Dropbox of messaging applications.

> It's that Telegram has social features.

Yes, unencrypted social features that could just as easily be serviced by any other social networking app which hasn't been explicitly banned yet (and that could happen to Telegram at any time).

> It's that Telegram operates under harsher network conditions.

So their operators claim. But it's not clear why that would be true and I haven't seen any numbers to demonstrate it either. Have you?

Re: Telegram messaging app proves crucial to Belarus protests

#180

Post by chongli »

ceeniwer wrote: post #64
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long-preparing revolutionaries need a way to communicate and coordinate with a bunch of people who suddenly see things their way. The government often tries to jam the lines of communication, so some alternate form of communication is often critical.

I wonder why is it that folks in Hong Kong, xinjiang and Tibet can’t effectively work together using telegram to start a massive nation wide riot. There are so many Folks in those regions who are oppressed (millions) and they are being organ harvested, forced to work in factories as slave labor, held in concentration camps, disappeared without trials, and tortured for democratic ideals. Or these folks can coordinate…

People who would be interested in rioting generally don't show up to riot unless they can be sure there are a lot of other people who will do so as well. A "one-man riot" is just a stupid vandal the police have no trouble arresting. And so communication of intent to riot is not really enough. There's a coordination problem akin to a massive game of chicken that needs to be solved.

Usually, the way this problem is overcome is that rioters show up to peaceful protests and engage in a sort of signalling game to other would-be rioters. The usual trigger to begin the riot is the sound of shattering glass. Until someone is ready to throw that first brick, you aren't likely to see much of anything.

Authoritarian countries know all this and they try very hard to prevent riots by banning all peaceful protests. Much harder to start a riot when there aren't any people on the streets to give cover.

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