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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#601

Post by meowface »

spsful wrote: post #599
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

I'd just like to add here that Uber is now allowing drivers to set rates.

This comment definitely shouldn't stay buried. I wasn't aware Uber was doing this anywhere. If they are, that changes the debate.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#602

Post by kart23 »

overgard wrote: post #176

I honestly don't mind paying more if it goes to support the drivers, but I haven't really seen a compelling argument for why all drivers should count as employees. From my perspective being an "employee" implies certain things that don't seem to apply here (predictable work times, exclusivity (so many lyft drivers are also uber drivers), etc. ) "Freelancer" seems way more appropriate, the only problem is the lack of…

Aside from the health insurance problem, I think they should be able to earn minimum amounts, there should be a limit on how much money you can lose per hour driving for lyft or uber. Workers comp should be included as well, its morally wrong to have someone work for you and not take care of them if they are injured while working.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#604

Post by matthewowen »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

I am as skeptical about uber as anyone, but didn't they do this already in california?

Riders can choose their own rates, which leads to users being offered a "closer but more expensive" option. They also got rid of the decline penalty iirc.

https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-makes-majo...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#605

Post by Supermancho »

dahfizz wrote: post #402
Supermancho wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That way the user gets their driver faster. How is that relevant? If you are an agency, you are advertising availability both ways. If you filter on behavior, you are no longer acting as an independent agency but as an agent for one side. Disclosing pattern behavior (has rejected 12 rides this hour) is the correct way to provide value-add, not silently making decisions for parties.

> How is that relevant? User experience is incredibly relevant. The entire purpose of the platform is to match drivers and riders. If it can do that more effectively, it has become better as an independent platform.

> The entire purpose of the platform is to match drivers and riders.

That's fine, but we're talking about legal relationships here, not the facilitating product. If you are going to assert you are legally acting in an impartial role, turning around and claiming partiality for one party (the riders) invalidates that position.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#606

Post by Supermancho »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #512
Supermancho wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That way the user gets their driver faster. How is that relevant? If you are an agency, you are advertising availability both ways. If you filter on behavior, you are no longer acting as an independent agency but as an agent for one side. Disclosing pattern behavior (has rejected 12 rides this hour) is the correct way to provide value-add, not silently making decisions for parties.

If you went to a recruitment agency, would you expect them to send you to interview at every single company regardless of if they think that the company would be interested in hiring you? Clearly agencies do discriminate who they match with each other. I would say that is the entire point of agencies infact.

> you expect them to send you to interview at every single company regardless of if they think that the company would be interested in hiring you?

I expect to be matched with every available role and an attempt to be made to represent me to them (and they to me). The disclaimer that they are looking for X Y or not Z is part of that. There is a practical issue muddying the metaphor which does not apply to the rideshare matching technology.

> Clearly agencies do discriminate who they match with each other.

That needs to be explicitly outlined in your contract with an agency. An employment agency is legally prohibited from doing that. This is the heart of the legal matter, imo.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#607

Post by mcguire »

xapata wrote: post #488
lathiat wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

Strange. I've heard the same stories about Uber: drivers complaining about short, unprofitable rides, and then there was the study about Uber drivers who take more risks while driving making more money.[1]

I suppose the only thing preventing the adversarial behavior is that the driver needs your five-star review.

[1] in the context of why women Uber drivers make less.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#608

Post by neap24 »

ryanisnan wrote: post #596
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

Whether or not a group of people is aware of their exploitation should not be a factor in whether or not a society allows their exploitation.

Ah, well. I think I can make this circular. It is perhaps exploitative to demand these laws. It's unfair treatment of Uber/Lyft employees to imposing regulatory regimes against their wishes (claiming it actually benefits them) to satisfy the political benefits/desires of an outside group. Society should not allow that exploitation to exist whether or not the outside group realizes it is exploitation.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#609

Post by sagichmal »

gridlockd wrote: post #541
ganafagol wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to do for people living paycheck to paycheck. Then they should refuse the job you say? Yeah right then they don't even have that little paycheck anymore. There is a power imbalance here, and that's the root issue. The employee and the employer are not on the same level in terms of negotiating power. Hard for tech people like the HN crowd to realize, but in most areas outside overpaid overdemanded software engine…

It's called a buyer's market. It's normal that there's an oversupply of unskilled labor, so the buyers of that labor have more power. However, don't forget that it's usually the same for a business and its customers: Ride-hailing itself is a buyer's market. Lyft and Uber are unprofitable. The only way for them to stay "in business" is to constantly burn money. Supply and demand is not a free market ideal, it's a law…

> Supply and demand is not a free market ideal, it's a law of nature.

In which nature? Not this one...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#610

Post by mcguire »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

A couple of points.

1. Valid survey questions are very hard to phrase. Asking someone about their job when their job depends on your goodwill in not conducive to truthful answers.

2. Given the corporations' behavior, the driver's job depends on their following the corporate script.

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