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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#261

Post by smallgovt »

blakesterz wrote: post #6

"Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers, while labor unions and elected officials contend this deprives them of traditional benefits like health insurance and workers’ compensation." I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. 1. https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/ 2. (In a May online survey dra…

> (In a May online survey drawing responses from 734 Uber and Lyft drivers nationwide, 71% said they wanted to be independent contractors)

As others are mentioning, the survey was very simplistic and most drivers don't understand the full ramifications of AB5.

That said, I still think the majority of fully-informed drivers would vote against AB5.

Enforcing AB5 will very likely result in: 1) substantial increase in benefits 2) slightly lower base pay 3) half of drivers losing their job 4) scheduled shifts.

My guess is #3 is the biggest issue for most drivers.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#262

Post by slg »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

>Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market.

Everyone who works for Lyft or Uber is making an active choice to work for Lyft or Uber. It isn't surprising they would choose to continue working for them rather than risk losing that job entirely. That doesn't mean these people aren't being taken advantage of by these companies.

It is comparable to someone being paid below minimum wage under the table. If that person entered into that arrangement voluntarily, they likely did it because that is their best option. If that person is given the choice of supporting a lower minimum wage or being fired, they will likely support the lower minimum wage. That doesn't mean that society as a whole would benefit from a lower minimum wage. We should instead enact laws we think are best for society as a whole (I'm not convinced that AB5 is necessarily that, but I am speaking generally here) while also implementing social policies that can take care of the people like this who are caught in the transition of raising labor standards.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#264

Post by mediaman »

renewiltord wrote: post #225
shanemhansen wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's lots of ways to lie with surveys, I wonder what the exact wording was and what the responses would be to variants such as: 1. Do you want to be CEO of your own company or a peon employee? 2. Do you want uber to set your hours? 3. Do you want medical, vacation days, or unemployment insurance? For some people these are all basically the same questions. For most folks, I don't think they are.

Very curious about this trend I've seen on HN where instead of going to the primary source, commenters will take 2x the time to hypothesize about what the primary source could contain. In this particular case it was so easy that it really makes me wonder. I can think of a couple of reasons: * Uncertainty with where in the primary source the content is * Concern that you're being Gish Galloped with citations * Lack of…

There's a psychological reward to having other people read what you write, and possibly getting upvotes.

This reward exceeds the reward from learning the actual information.

Many platforms are plagued by people more interested in being heard than learning facts.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#265

Post by asdasfasdfasdf »

macinjosh wrote: post #66
asdasfasdfasdf wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"personal risk" This is kind of the state of the country really. Ridesharing is an OK gig until you get into an accident, you're fine without health insurance until you get injured, you don't really need a union until you start getting treated unfairly, you can pay for college as long as you consistently have a good salary... we're being statistically gaslit with the idea that most people can scrape by without higher…

I think you're gas lighting us by ignoring the fact that this personal risk is taken at personal choice. If someone wanted the arrangement that comes with an employee/employer relationship there are jobs that offer that. But not everyone wants that, some people prefer, for their own reasons that are really none of your business to be an independent contractor. This is about choice plain and simple.

When's the last time you've worked a minimum wage contract job? At that level of employment you're not exactly shopping around for better offers.

Uber and Lyft can offer benefits to contract workers. Do you think they don't because they want to give people the right to choose?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#266

Post by manquer »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

I understand that there is significant power disparity , however this is true for most contract gigs .

If you turn down some projects and/or get back feedback most companies will give you less work .

Consultants have to be really niche and highly skilled , hard to replace to be able to meaningfully negotiate their own terms .

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#267

Post by eitherisarb99 »

kreutz wrote: post #25

Why not let the market decide? If drivers are so unhappy why not just seek some alternative form of work? Uber/Lyft do not force anyone to hop online.

The market is just people and they decided not to openly revolt against government, tacitly approving it doing the work it’s long done of lifting up the bottom of society no one else wants to invest in.

The majority is not high tech types, nor does it need to aspire to be.

How do you separate this all from physical reality so easily?

Economics is not physics. The math is defined by biologically biased humans. Physical reality works how it do regardless of the syntax you want to emit about sound economics.

You really are just asking questions that have been debated forever. The answers haven’t changed. The narrative you would choose to recite isn’t the same as many others. And westerners aren’t a literal majority

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#269

Post by [deleted] »

jon-wood wrote: post #87
hammock wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says driving for Uber/Lyft should be a full-time job, or statutorily viable as a full-time job? If you consider it only as a second or third job, then it makes a lot more sense that your second or third job is not going to pay as well or have the same benefits as your first job. Those aspects would be expected and reasonable. The low-risk, high-reward jobs fill your primary job slot, then you seek other options a…

That you don’t bat an eyelid at people needing a second or third job to make ends meet is in itself an indictment of the general state of the US.

[deleted]

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#270

Post by bgorman »

Retric wrote: post #239
bsimpson wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We expect eBay/Amazon/Etsy to enforce standards on their platforms, but no one would argue that their sellers are employees. I'm not convinced that having price and ride quality standards invalidates the contractor relationship.

Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.

This is just fundamentally wrong.

As a kid I refereed soccer games. There was a set cost structure for each game depending on age group and whether I was assistant referee or center referee.

There was a system where I could sign up in advance if I wanted the work or not. Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time.

I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an independent contractor who was able to work for multiple leagues if I wanted to and who was able to quit at any time.

There is a fundamental role in society for temporary work.

The employer will always set the price in any kind of business relationship. If I hire a contractor to remodel my house for 4 weeks does this mean he is a full time employee of mine and I need to provide him benefits. If he doesn't want the work, he doesn't need to be there.

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