Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#171

Post by matmann2001 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

macinjosh wrote: post #135

matmann2001 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're gas lighting us by ignoring the fact that these types of choices aren't fully unconstrained. People aren't assuming this risk because they prefer to, but rather they have limited choices available to them given their resources and background.

> but rather they have limited choices available to them given their resources and background. So let's take one more choice away!? Not every person looking to make some money is looking for something with as much commitment as employment. Not every business needs people to work according to their schedule at a specific place. While you think you're giving full-time employment and benefits to all of these people what…

Yes! If the free market results in employers offering shitty choices that take advantage of workers with limited options, the government should step in and attempt to correct the power-imbalance that puts the workers at life- and liberty-threatening disadvantages.

Extrapolating from your logic, indentured servitude would still be allowed to exist.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#172

Post by tomjakubowski » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

dcftoapv wrote: post #136

lovecg wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The talking points I heard was that this was done because of 1) Payroll tax revenue 2) Unions feeling threatened The implication is in either case it’s an explicitly hostile action by the government in favor of special interests, and the majority of drivers did not want this. Can anyone more knowledgeable on the topic pitch in — is there any truth to these arguments?

The Los Angeles taxi union prevented (read: bribed and coerced) the state / city government from installing a train from LAX to DTLA because they were rolling in cash. Then, they got pissed about Uber, and had a rule enacted that forced passengers to take a bus to an external lot which turned the world's worst airport congestion into a way worse situation. It is not unrealistic to think that they are a driving force…

What "Los Angeles taxi union" organization specifically lobbied against the LAX train, which, by the way, is now being built?

There may well have been industry lobbyists fighting this but until very recently (the last five years) almost no taxi drivers in Los Angeles were unionized.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#173

Post by cltby » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #138

cltby wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was a (lame) play on the inane parent. Maybe you're paying, and maybe you're not. But if you are, you're doing so grudgingly. "I wouldn't have to pay taxes to support this gigantic welfare state I've repeatedly voted for if only greedy Uber and Lyft would pay for my moral principles!"

You can want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem

What exactly are Uber and Lyft free-riding off of? What public service are they abusing by operating a ride-sharing marketplace? In what way are they avoiding their "fair share" when their employees and investors already shoulder a massive and disproportionate part of the state's tax burden?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#174

Post by hhsuey » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #72

When companies like Uber/Lyft depend on safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, what’s happening is that our children are paying for returns on VC capital. People profiting from these types of companies should feel bad about themselves.

The gig economy model can be better, but I don't think it's helpful to blame individual companies. It's an entire system at play. Some people are totally happy with earning over a few hours a week. It's not a one size fits all system, so the model needs to be more flexible.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#175

Post by macinjosh » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

orclev wrote: post #115

macinjosh wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This information is only useful if it is contrasted against the number of people who want/need/are able to work. People like the retired, teenagers, stay-at-home parents, college students, etc. all may make some small amount of income each year but generally speaking don't work full time. This isn't evidence of people struggling. It is evidence of people exercising their personal rights which include not being a work…

You're suggesting that the retired, teenagers, stay-at-home parents, and college students make up the majority of the US working population? Yeah, not buying that one at all. The US economy is fucked right now, we've been madly spinning the plate to try to keep it going, but it's starting to wobble badly. Unless something major is done soon it's only a question of when not if things start to implode.

> You're suggesting that the retired, teenagers, stay-at-home parents, and college students make up the majority of the US working population? Yeah, not buying that one at all.

No where did I say this. What are you talking about?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#176

Post by overgard » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

I honestly don't mind paying more if it goes to support the drivers, but I haven't really seen a compelling argument for why all drivers should count as employees. From my perspective being an "employee" implies certain things that don't seem to apply here (predictable work times, exclusivity (so many lyft drivers are also uber drivers), etc. ) "Freelancer" seems way more appropriate, the only problem is the lack of protections. It seems to me that culturally "gig worker" has become its own category anyway and it makes more sense to create a new legal category with its own set of legal protections.

I know people will point to health insurance... but that's a separate problem with having health insurance tied to employment. I think it's awful that people that aren't considered full time employees don't get health insurance.. but I also think that's the government's problem and obligation, not Uber or Lyfts

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#177

Post by Skunkleton » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

jluxenberg wrote: post #36

Skunkleton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...Uber drivers reported earning $13.47 per hour, which means that on average, drivers report that their car is costing them over $6 per hour to operate. If you were to drive full time, that would get you about 27k/year, which is about the average income that a taxi driver makes. Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver, but giving you more flexibility.…

Tangent: $6/hr sounds a bit low; actual costs are probably higher. The IRS standard mileage rate (the amount you can deduct from your taxes for each mile driven) is $0.58/mi ( https://www.irs.gov/tax-professionals/standard-mileage-rates ) $6/hr operating costs means the driver is driving a max of ~10mi/hour, if costs to operate are in line with IRS guidelines.

TCO for a Prius is about 6k a year for non-rideshare applications. The link has this cost around ~13k per year, which isn't outlandish. I think you are right in general though. Uber will let you drive an F-350, but there is no way you will make money with it.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#178

Post by yunderalls » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

cltby wrote: post #111

> Seems like a loss for everyone except bureaucrats Not true, it's a great opportunity for javascript developers to get up on their soap boxes and share with us their moral and economic wisdom.

I laughed at this, but I do think I should point out that in a democracy it's good for people to have opinions about things that aren't their profession.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#179

Post by grugagag » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

maire wrote: post #118

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

I remember when there was a crackdown on software independent contractors. What most contractors did was go through an agency that managed your services. The difference in pay was usually 20% since the agency took 20% of your pay. I suspect this will happen ultimately with the drivers - although I can't imagine the drivers will be thrilled with a 20% cut in pay.

20% cut on top of the 30-40% that uber/lift take?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#180

Post by sampsonitify » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

Skunkleton wrote: post #23

blakesterz wrote: post #6

"Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers, while labor unions and elected officials contend this deprives them of traditional benefits like health insurance and workers’ compensation." I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. 1. https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/ 2. (In a May online survey dra…

> ...Uber drivers reported earning $13.47 per hour, which means that on average, drivers report that their car is costing them over $6 per hour to operate. If you were to drive full time, that would get you about 27k/year, which is about the average income that a taxi driver makes. Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver, but giving you more flexibility.…

And what does welfare pay? Serious question as I'm not in the USA and have no idea.

If Welfare pays less, isn't Uber/Lyft a positive thing?

And that is just the direct monetary benefit of $27K vs welfare. There are many intangible benefits to work vs welfare beyond money.

Being unemployed has mental health and life satisfaction costs (summary: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/04/is...). This is research that has existed for > 30 years.

There is significant evidence that long term unemployment REALLY hurts someone's hiring chances when applying for a job (see https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/04/co... from 2013 with linked papers). As a stepping stone to a living wage, driving rideshare likely helps people looking for better paid work, especially given you can clock off for two hours to take an interview, then clock back on. Try that working any other job.

The rideshare side of the ledger has better mental health & life satisfaction, more money and better job prospects, vs the welfare side with more free time.

I'd prefer to frame the "living wage" question as of all the people who drive Uber/Lyft, not Uber/Lyft drivers which puts their job above their humanity and implies it is a permanent state of affairs, anyway of all the people who drive Uber/Lyft at some point in their lives, will they be better off with the option of driving Uber/Lyft, or better off in a world where Uber/Lyft is not an option?