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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#151

Post by creato »

r00fus wrote: post #26
creato wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet their argument is they can't afford to spend $300M to cover driver benefits and pay into state unemployment insurance. You compared global market cap/revenue losses to just the impact of CA. What happens when other markets follow in CA's footsteps?

This argument that local laws can't be followed because "what would other jurisdictions do" doesn't seem to apply to authoritarian places like China who impose pretty onerous requirements for operation (like state ownership). There is another option for Uber/Lyft - to let drivers set their prices and/or routes. Of course, that would make them less of a unicorn and more of a utility and that would crater their valuati…

I'm not making an argument for or against Uber. Just explaining why they didn't just eat the cost of this because it would have been insignificant/cheaper than fighting it.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#152

Post by crosscorsair »

ksdale wrote: post #130
ram_rar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 for tipping culture. I just dont get it, why can employers pay their fair share, instead of expecting customers to foot the bill.

I wouldn't mind at all if tipping culture disappeared, but I think it's naive to think that costs wouldn't go up dramatically for customers. Customers are footing the bill one way or another, it's just a matter of whether we're willing to pay enough to ensure everyone gets a livable wage.

The real problem of tipping culture is it transferred the conflict of interest from businesses/employees to customers/employees. Yes customers may end up paying the same, but when the employees want more, they will not ask for it from the customers.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#153

Post by shanemhansen »

deminature wrote: post #131
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

The RideShareGuy is the most prominent blog for drivers and their annual survey seems to reflect that [1] >66% of drivers said they wanted to be independent contractors vs 15.8% who wanted to be an employee [1] https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/

There's lots of ways to lie with surveys, I wonder what the exact wording was and what the responses would be to variants such as:

1. Do you want to be CEO of your own company or a peon employee?

2. Do you want uber to set your hours?

3. Do you want medical, vacation days, or unemployment insurance?

For some people these are all basically the same questions. For most folks, I don't think they are.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#154

Post by all_blue_chucks »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

We should all care. Uber doesn't provide health insurance. Instead Uber drivers get their healthcare costs covered by the rest of us (either via ACA subsidies or written-off care provided to the uninsured).

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#155

Post by throwawaygh »

lovich wrote: post #138
cltby wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was a (lame) play on the inane parent. Maybe you're paying, and maybe you're not. But if you are, you're doing so grudgingly. "I wouldn't have to pay taxes to support this gigantic welfare state I've repeatedly voted for if only greedy Uber and Lyft would pay for my moral principles!"

You can want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem

You can also not want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem.

Unless you’re living off returns on capital, your tax dollars and your children’s future tax dollars are keeping Uber/Lyft independent contractors fed and off the streets.

I’m not sure why you’d be more angry at people who don’t want to see homelessness/hunger than at people who are pocketing everything in good times and peaking out in bad times.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#156

Post by talmr »

cltby wrote: post #111

> Seems like a loss for everyone except bureaucrats Not true, it's a great opportunity for javascript developers to get up on their soap boxes and share with us their moral and economic wisdom.

wdym? is this related to the SO developer survey?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#157

Post by marcinzm »

square90 wrote: post #132
marcinzm wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? As I understand it Uber/Lyft drivers are not eligible for unemployment benefits (recent laws/court rulings aside). So they don't depend on the safety nets in any way. edit: Unemployment insurance is paid by companies for their workers who may use it in the future. It's not a shared social obligation from taxes. Nor is everyone eligible to use it merely by existing.

The CARES Act and state-level programs are paying unemployment assistance to contractors and self-employed individuals not usually covered by unemployment [0], [1]. [0] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/pandemic-u... [1] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/cares-act....

Which is a one-off "world is burning down" case which no one planned for or expected. Hardy a long term plan by the VCs to take advantage of everyone else.

I'm guessing unemployment insurance didn't cover a lot of the rest of the unemployed either for COVID (as it ran out due to never being designed for this situation) so it came from taxes. In which case no one paid into the social safety net except through taxes (which Lyft/Uber are not exempt from).

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#158

Post by dcftoapv »

ReaLNero wrote: post #110
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

California is about 5% of revenue for Uber.

Maybe, but this law will prevent Uber from ever turning a profit in CA, so it's far easier to just shutdown operations, and move their headquarters.

I live here, pay taxes here, and vote here. I am actively rooting against the state right now.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#159

Post by mindlar »

chasd00 wrote: post #120
blakesterz wrote: post #6

"Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers, while labor unions and elected officials contend this deprives them of traditional benefits like health insurance and workers’ compensation." I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. 1. https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/ 2. (In a May online survey dra…

If the people affected are against the law then how did it make it to a vote, let alone pass? that blows me away.

California is a single party state with a supermajority of delegates. This means that Democrats can pass pretty much any law that they want without any real opposition.

The unions in California are unhappy with Uber/Lyft employees not being union members since their presence is an alternative (read danger) to some of the unions (teamsters/taxis). Unions have a lot more power with Democrats since they are some of their biggest supporters, so the legislature tends to do things that benefits unions.

Since California is effectively a single party state, the legislators that voted for this don't need to worry about things like being reelected because they are unlikely to actually see real opposition outside of a primary challenger.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#160

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Skunkleton wrote: post #23
blakesterz wrote: post #6

"Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers, while labor unions and elected officials contend this deprives them of traditional benefits like health insurance and workers’ compensation." I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. 1. https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/ 2. (In a May online survey dra…

> ...Uber drivers reported earning $13.47 per hour, which means that on average, drivers report that their car is costing them over $6 per hour to operate. If you were to drive full time, that would get you about 27k/year, which is about the average income that a taxi driver makes. Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver, but giving you more flexibility.…

> Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver

At least in New York, the drivers carry all the risk. They pay for insurance and gas and damages and time (so they take risk of not getting fares).

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