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App stores, trust and anti-trust

ben-evans.com

31–40 of 94 posts

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#31
Epic is fine with the appstore, but it wants to handle it's own in-app payments. You can have an app store with a separate in app payments; Uber does for example. Epic says as much in it's argument for a preliminary injunction.*

Stadia is actually more of an existential issue than Epic because they want to run unapproved games.

* https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327...

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#32

Why don't disgruntled app developers just pull their apps from the app stores? Everyone is using custom launchers on Android these days anyway, lets show big tec how much customers want to use custom launchers.

RIP your app on iOS if you remove it from the app store.

There is very little an iPhone user can do if their phone isn't rooted.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#33

Epic is fine with the appstore, but it wants to handle it's own in-app payments. You can have an app store with a separate in app payments; Uber does for example. Epic says as much in it's argument for a preliminary injunction.* Stadia is actually more of an existential issue than Epic because they want to run unapproved games. * https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327...

Stadia and it's ilk are not running any apps other than video streaming and input capture. The apps and games you play via them are run on a remote server and I/O is streamed between it and your device. If that's running "unapproved apps" then so is twitch when it did Twitch Plays Pokemon.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#34
post #3

> This is a trade-off, but there's a certain kind of person in tech that thinks app stores and the iOS sandbox have nothing to do with the success of smartphones and the iPhone - they're just a stupid Apple thing you could get rid of with no ill effects. > Unfortunately, you can’t have your cake and eat it. A secure system with a switch to turn off the security might work for Linux and a highly technical user, but wh…

I genuinely don't understand this argument. The fact that a platform succeeded despite security holes is not an argument against removing those holes. You might as well say that the malware explosion on Windows wasn't a problem because Windows still did well.

The quoted idea you are trying to defend in your article--explicitly, forcibly, and frankly even a bit condescendingly (via "a certain type of person") :(--is that Apple having a closed ecosystem was a necessary prerequisite to the iPhone's success, that removing this aspect of the product would destroy its value, and that it takes "a certain kind of person" to believe that the success of the iPhone somehow wasn't because of this closed up shop. You are trying to make this argument from a position of strength.

However, we have the most direct evidence possible for this assertion being false: the iPhone in fact had a "switch" (in the form of exploits for security holes that were packaged up as consumer-friendly tools to "jailbreak" the device) that let users do the strongest possible variant of what anyone talks about--allowing the user complete decision making over all of the software running on the device, not merely to install some banned apps--and not only did the world not end but somehow the iPhone was still a success.

We therefore know, without any trace of doubt, because it already happened, that if Apple didn't have centralized control over an App Store--and even if users were able to opt out of the sandbox, which notably isn't actually the argument being made by Epic! that is just something you threw in for dramatic effect and yet even still ignores the history ;P--that not only wouldn't the world end from user self-inflicted malware, but that the iPhone would still have been a success, because we actually saw this play out.

Now, you can make an entirely different argument that this freedom to install software from third parties should come from something other than a "security hole": I wouldn't disagree there, and neither would Epic! However, you aren't making that argument: you are arguing that the entire concept of undermining Apple's centralized control via their App Store is itself a security flaw and that if it didn't exist would have destroyed the iPhone's ability to succeed... which again, we know--without speculation--is false.

Or you could try to make a speculative argument that maybe the iPhone could still have been a success even if it had always been a locked down and closed ecosystem the way you want. I think that would be a difficult argument, and in fact I have already provided some seeds of the opposite argument: that if the platform in fact had been locked down the way you seem to think it had been, that it might not have been as much of a success as it was. This could be a fun argument, FWIW, but it again isn't the argument you are making.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#35
I'm generally for more tech regulation, but I don't want to see Apple's position of power degraded. What may be needed is regulations to limit Apple's take, because 30% of a $2 app is fine in my eyes, but 30% of an app that goes for $50 is a bit much. To me it's the amount of work involved. Apple does more work for more complex apps, but it doesn't really scale with the investment involved.

I really don't want to go back to the days where I have to enter my credit card in some stupid payment form instead of just authenticating with face id.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#36
I am trying to understand why is this business model from apple not acceptable, from my point of view the way apple makes money on the apple store is with the 30% fees on transations. In exchange they give out tools, libraries and services for free. Do i get that wrong?

with that in mind isnt the request of Epic something like: "We want access to all your platform and tools for free?"

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#37

I'm generally for more tech regulation, but I don't want to see Apple's position of power degraded. What may be needed is regulations to limit Apple's take, because 30% of a $2 app is fine in my eyes, but 30% of an app that goes for $50 is a bit much. To me it's the amount of work involved. Apple does more work for more complex apps, but it doesn't really scale with the investment involved. I really don't want to go…

The can add 30% on top of the cost so the user can decide for themselves.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#38
post #36

I am trying to understand why is this business model from apple not acceptable, from my point of view the way apple makes money on the apple store is with the 30% fees on transations. In exchange they give out tools, libraries and services for free. Do i get that wrong? with that in mind isnt the request of Epic something like: "We want access to all your platform and tools for free?"

If I have an ebook store and want to give iOS users a nice experience when buying books Apple will make the books more expensive with 30% and on top of that if I want to give my users information that they have the option to buy cheaper from my website I can't , Apple is preventing their users to get informed/educated on how to get cheaper stuff because this information costs Apple money.

Btw you can have apps that do not use any of Apple SDKs (for example engines will use the OS core and neither of the fancy GUI toolkits and languages)

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#39
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article is just repeating the same Apple messaging points they've given us. Unrelated, but this is just about my least favorite criticism of an argument. "Messaging points" are used/reused because they're usually the strongest arguments. By pointing this out, you're just saying "this person is just repeating the strongest arguments". Attack the argument, not its provenance!

I don't know, it would be great if any of these people had bothered talking to a lawyer or an anti-trust scholar, a provenance that would matter a lot to understanding this issue. For example, almost everyone here will learn more reading "Amazon’s Antitrust Paradox" ( https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-parado... ) to understand why Epic set things up the particular, exact way they did - because the…

I'm not sure why people think this was some great legal trap pulled off here. Everyone already knows that Apple's commission is 30%. Simply charging less in the app doesn't actually show that Apple's commission is harming consumer welfare (or conversely with Spotify, charging more in iOS). Epic would have to show that Apple's alleged monopoly power is raising prices at a supracompetitive level in a relevant market.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#40

Epic is fine with the appstore, but it wants to handle it's own in-app payments. You can have an app store with a separate in app payments; Uber does for example. Epic says as much in it's argument for a preliminary injunction.* Stadia is actually more of an existential issue than Epic because they want to run unapproved games. * https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327...

You notice that Epic isn’t insisting on in app payments for any of the consoles, why not?

Can I use in app payments within the Epic app that allow me to bypass Epic and get virtual currency even cheaper than Epic?

Epic gets to choose how people buy currency on its platform. What’s the difference?

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