Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

App stores, trust and anti-trust

ben-evans.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 94 posts

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#11

Post by novok »

mrtksn wrote: post #6
jarjoura wrote: post #5

This article is just repeating the same Apple messaging points they've given us. First off, the article's biggest point, the security sandbox, is not the issue at all with the App Store. The entire internet runs inside of a sandbox. Developers understand they must play fair on a device that is shared with other developers. I don't think I've seen anyone complain of this anywhere. However, what Apple has employed its…

>First off, the article's biggest point, the security sandbox, is not the issue at all with the App Store. The entire internet runs inside of a sandbox. The web has become one horrible user experience. When left alone, developers apparently don't play nice, they hog bandwidth and user resources left and right. A few tabs on a web browser easily saturates the machine resources these days, be it internet bandwidth, RAM…

Good behavior on an iOS device is not enforced by the app store, but by the OS. Background processing is limited on a timer, the OS throttles processes that use too much background processing & networking depending on context, etc.

The OS also suspends background apps fairly aggressively compared to the foreground app. Mobile apps also give you more tracking variables to do fingerprinting with than browsers do and it's pretty much impossible to practically add a local firewall to iOS devices to block ads. Adblocking isn't a practical thing on mobile apps.

Similarly, managing bad 'tabs' is really the browser's responsibility.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#12

Post by mrtksn »

novok wrote: post #11
mrtksn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First off, the article's biggest point, the security sandbox, is not the issue at all with the App Store. The entire internet runs inside of a sandbox. The web has become one horrible user experience. When left alone, developers apparently don't play nice, they hog bandwidth and user resources left and right. A few tabs on a web browser easily saturates the machine resources these days, be it internet bandwidth, RAM…

Good behavior on an iOS device is not enforced by the app store, but by the OS. Background processing is limited on a timer, the OS throttles processes that use too much background processing & networking depending on context, etc. The OS also suspends background apps fairly aggressively compared to the foreground app. Mobile apps also give you more tracking variables to do fingerprinting with than browsers do and it…

Do you suggest that browsers should adopt Apple's approach? I kind of like the idea of tabs being active only when selected and browsers rejecting pages that are too much resource intensive.

That said, I wrote that in response to the claim that "Developers understand they must play fair on a device that is shared with other developers" but apparently missed to quote it.

So no, developers don't play nice, in fact a lot of them are horrible greedy people and that's why we can't have nice things. Ethics are very poor in that profession and that’s why we need very tight screws to have good user experience.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#13

Post by threatofrain »

mrtksn wrote: post #12
novok wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good behavior on an iOS device is not enforced by the app store, but by the OS. Background processing is limited on a timer, the OS throttles processes that use too much background processing & networking depending on context, etc. The OS also suspends background apps fairly aggressively compared to the foreground app. Mobile apps also give you more tracking variables to do fingerprinting with than browsers do and it…

Do you suggest that browsers should adopt Apple's approach? I kind of like the idea of tabs being active only when selected and browsers rejecting pages that are too much resource intensive. That said, I wrote that in response to the claim that "Developers understand they must play fair on a device that is shared with other developers" but apparently missed to quote it. So no, developers don't play nice, in fact a lo…

This is already similar to Apple’s approach, as you can notice tabs refreshing and losing data when you come back to it.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#14

Post by mrtksn »

threatofrain wrote: post #13
mrtksn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you suggest that browsers should adopt Apple's approach? I kind of like the idea of tabs being active only when selected and browsers rejecting pages that are too much resource intensive. That said, I wrote that in response to the claim that "Developers understand they must play fair on a device that is shared with other developers" but apparently missed to quote it. So no, developers don't play nice, in fact a lo…

This is already similar to Apple’s approach, as you can notice tabs refreshing and losing data when you come back to it.

I don’t notice such a thing. How can I reproduce it? What OS and browser?

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#15

Post by pkaler »

This is a whole lot of words that doesn't clearly convey the core point: Apple App Store payments should compete on technical/business merits and not be mandatory based upon contractual obligations.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#16

Post by novok »

mrtksn wrote: post #12
novok wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good behavior on an iOS device is not enforced by the app store, but by the OS. Background processing is limited on a timer, the OS throttles processes that use too much background processing & networking depending on context, etc. The OS also suspends background apps fairly aggressively compared to the foreground app. Mobile apps also give you more tracking variables to do fingerprinting with than browsers do and it…

Do you suggest that browsers should adopt Apple's approach? I kind of like the idea of tabs being active only when selected and browsers rejecting pages that are too much resource intensive. That said, I wrote that in response to the claim that "Developers understand they must play fair on a device that is shared with other developers" but apparently missed to quote it. So no, developers don't play nice, in fact a lo…

Yeah browsers do to some point and probably can do more to improve the situation.

One annoying thing about apple's aggressive approach although is it's difficult to have actual background processes running on your device. Stuff like arc app keeps on getting shut down, it's difficult to have a mail client or an image syncing service actually be running in the background as frequently as apple's first party ones and so on.

Also you can't run something like little snitch on your mobile device.

In the desktop case this is ok, since you have the escape hatch of electron apps in the web tech example, but in iOS you don't have anything.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#17

Post by liability »

tempsy wrote: post #10
evanextreme wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, that's probably why a lot of software engineers do read him, because he reaffirms their beliefs that big tech is in the right.

i don't think the rank and file working for "big tech" are emotionally invested in whether their employer can stay a monopoly or not - if anything lack of competition among large employers means its easier to collude with each other to suppress compensation

This isn't even a hypothetical concern: https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po...

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#18

Post by benedictevans »

tempsy wrote: post #7

I don't know why anyone reads Ben Evans - he's a sycophant for big tech who seems to lack the ability to objectively reason about monopoly power.

Well, you clearly don't read anything I write - this piece ends by saying Apple's IAP model is unsustainable and needs to be dismantled, and my previous post said big tech companies are going to become as tightly regulated as banks.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#19

Post by benedictevans »

saurik wrote: post #3

> This is a trade-off, but there's a certain kind of person in tech that thinks app stores and the iOS sandbox have nothing to do with the success of smartphones and the iPhone - they're just a stupid Apple thing you could get rid of with no ill effects. > Unfortunately, you can’t have your cake and eat it. A secure system with a switch to turn off the security might work for Linux and a highly technical user, but wh…

I genuinely don't understand this argument. The fact that a platform succeeded despite security holes is not an argument against removing those holes. You might as well say that the malware explosion on Windows wasn't a problem because Windows still did well.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#20

Post by wayneftw »

benedictevans wrote: post #18
tempsy wrote: post #7

I don't know why anyone reads Ben Evans - he's a sycophant for big tech who seems to lack the ability to objectively reason about monopoly power.

Well, you clearly don't read anything I write - this piece ends by saying Apple's IAP model is unsustainable and needs to be dismantled, and my previous post said big tech companies are going to become as tightly regulated as banks.

I don't see it. I read it twice and tried searching for "unsustainable" and "dismantle". Could you point out where you said that exactly?
Post reply on HN