Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#21

Post by daveslash » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 6:23 PM UTC

entropea wrote: post #20

raziel2p wrote: post #8

I was politically active on the left over 10 years ago and I still remember how a loud minority seemed obsessed with factions and seeding discord. It was a really effective tactic, made me wonder if it was active sabotage at times. Not much has changed.

I'm still active on the left and very much into social & economic justice, but I often notice how much division these anti-sexist and anti-racist tactics create inside the left political spectrum. I don't think a lot of these tactics are friendly, engaging, and a lot are destined to generate more negative outcomes and thoughts about left policy, structural racism & sexism in my opinion. As Fred Hampton once said, you…

I agree with you, and would like to add my thoughts. I realize that the people on the left who engage in such toxic tactics are a minority, but I feel the need to say something: Several people in my friends/family circle lean very much to the right, and they don't seem to really understand that the left-extremists are the minority; and extremists on the right are clutching onto these rare demonstrations and telling their conservative base that this is "all leftists". I personally know several people who equate a vote for Biden as a vote to bring exactly this type of toxic behavior mainstream - they have told me exactly that. These sorts of extreme tactics on the left push many right-leaning people into the far-right-extremes. There are a lot of legitimate points on both sides of the aisle, and it's not my intent to downplay either side here, but I do mean to say that these sorts of tactics are more than mere self-sabotage by the people employing them -- they're actively divisive.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#22

Post by ardy42 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

daveslash wrote: post #21

entropea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still active on the left and very much into social & economic justice, but I often notice how much division these anti-sexist and anti-racist tactics create inside the left political spectrum. I don't think a lot of these tactics are friendly, engaging, and a lot are destined to generate more negative outcomes and thoughts about left policy, structural racism & sexism in my opinion. As Fred Hampton once said, you…

I agree with you, and would like to add my thoughts. I realize that the people on the left who engage in such toxic tactics are a minority, but I feel the need to say something: Several people in my friends/family circle lean very much to the right, and they don't seem to really understand that the left-extremists are the minority; and extremists on the right are clutching onto these rare demonstrations and telling t…

> I personally know several people who equate a vote for Biden as a vote to bring exactly this type of toxic behavior mainstream - they have told me exactly that. These sorts of extreme tactics on the left push many right-leaning people into the far-right-extremes.

As someone who used to be more on the right who's moving leftward (because of the current administration and a building frustration with many right wing ideas and attitudes), I can testify to the repulsive effect that these kind of displays have. I know these kinds of people are a minority, but they still concern me because of the power a zealous minority can wield in a party due to their zeal.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#23

Post by everdrive » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:57 PM UTC

daveslash wrote: post #21

entropea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still active on the left and very much into social & economic justice, but I often notice how much division these anti-sexist and anti-racist tactics create inside the left political spectrum. I don't think a lot of these tactics are friendly, engaging, and a lot are destined to generate more negative outcomes and thoughts about left policy, structural racism & sexism in my opinion. As Fred Hampton once said, you…

I agree with you, and would like to add my thoughts. I realize that the people on the left who engage in such toxic tactics are a minority, but I feel the need to say something: Several people in my friends/family circle lean very much to the right, and they don't seem to really understand that the left-extremists are the minority; and extremists on the right are clutching onto these rare demonstrations and telling t…

I want to start by saying that I generally agree with everything you’ve said.

I think this tendency to conflate the most extreme faction with the whole is a new, modern problem. People have always done this to some degree, the extremism of modern media (and social media) allow for regular exposure to fringe views that would otherwise be invisible to most people. And, the effect is twofold: 1) people tend to conflate the worst part of a faction with the whole faction, and 2) having witnessed the same phenomenon on the other side, people are more ready to either ignore or integrate extremism from their own side. It is also likely that this extremism of their own side is easily ignored because they know from personal experience that it’s not representative.

I think we’re living in an age where radicalism is mainstream.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#24

Post by badcatosaurus » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

I found this article very interesting, and a bell went off when I was reading the bit about the backgrounds of the board members. Ms. Tanikawa seemed to be the most militant in her beliefs, but think her strong opposition to the magnet-school system deserves a second look. While the US officially classifies many different ethnicities as “Asian” that doesn’t really account for the strained relationships and bigotry that exists between different cultural and ethnic groups.Based on the location of the school district/board, it’s pretty clear that the lower and middle class immigrant families that are using the magnet school system as a means of upward mobility are mostly Chinese and Korean. If we hold Ms. Tanikawa to the same level of scrutiny that she subjected Mr. Maron to, it’s fair to say that her own biases could be informing her own position as well. I have noticed that some of the most vehement “Anti-racists” have employed this ideology to paradoxically advocate for ideas and policies that are, in the most basic and obvious way, racist.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#25

Post by readthenotes » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:53 PM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #12

I had a girlfriend in high school that learned about feminism, and developed an annoying habit of playing "gotcha" with anything that could be spun as chauvinist. For instance anyone saying "C'mon you guys let's go eat" would get a lecture about how using the word "guys" to a mixed sex group was being oppressive. She didn't say "patriarchal" only because that word wasn't in currency yet. Years later her gotcha shtick…

When I was six, I moved from Minnesota to Tennessee.

At one point soon after, I was walking with my brothers and female cousins and said "hey you guys...", which was a common form if addressing multiple people in Minnesota.

One if my cousins, who had probably never heard that idiom before, replied "We're not guys".

Afterwards, I switched to the common southern idiom of "y'all".

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#26

Post by raxxorrax » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 10:17 AM UTC

watertom wrote: post #10

That article made my head hurt, then it made me a lot sad, then very angry. I can't tell if these people have just lost their minds, or if they are actually racists who are posing as anti-racists in order to undermine the efforts.

I had the theory that they were trolls. To my defense, at the time it got popular in my country, there were a lot of comments under news articles against Muslims and there was a general trend to put blame on them for every ill of society. People trying to make them as a group responsible for terrorism and demanded they need to distance themselves from these acts. Some form of backward kin liability.

Then they blamed all men and white people. It would have been an awesome troll to make people question their reasoning. Problem was that they weren't trolling and pretty serious about it.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#27

Post by rayiner » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

daveslash wrote: post #21

entropea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still active on the left and very much into social & economic justice, but I often notice how much division these anti-sexist and anti-racist tactics create inside the left political spectrum. I don't think a lot of these tactics are friendly, engaging, and a lot are destined to generate more negative outcomes and thoughts about left policy, structural racism & sexism in my opinion. As Fred Hampton once said, you…

I agree with you, and would like to add my thoughts. I realize that the people on the left who engage in such toxic tactics are a minority, but I feel the need to say something: Several people in my friends/family circle lean very much to the right, and they don't seem to really understand that the left-extremists are the minority; and extremists on the right are clutching onto these rare demonstrations and telling t…

I followed the primaries closely, and based on the uniformly left political positions folks were taking, it seemed to me at the time that the supposed minority was very powerful. Consider the near-universal use of the term “LatinX.” Apparently, 76% of Hispanic people have never even heard the term. Out of those who have heard it, 2/3 object to it being used to describe Hispanics. Only 3% use the term themselves. https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in...

One under appreciated aspect of all this is that these folks, while a minority overall, are highly overrepresented among people with power. Democrat voters might not use “LatinX.” But the college-educated “wonks” who will actually be turning the gears of the Biden administration may well do so.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#28

Post by harryh » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #19

bbatha wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criticizing "you guys" as a sexist term when describing a mixed gender group is a) true because there are multiple genders in the group and b) not a gotcha. She wasn't baiting you into saying sexist remarks to criticize you as a chauvinist. Her over enthusiasm may have been annoying sure, but calling it "gotcha" behavior is a way to casually dismiss anti-racists and anti-sexists without actually in their engaging arg…

I ignored the argument because I could not have reasonably engaged with it and decided that I disagree?

Do you think if people consistently referred to a group of people that included you as "hey girls" you would find it....a bit strange?

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#29

Post by hirundo » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #28

hirundo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ignored the argument because I could not have reasonably engaged with it and decided that I disagree?

Do you think if people consistently referred to a group of people that included you as "hey girls" you would find it....a bit strange?

I think policing wrongthink in everyday conversation is about as effective as painting the correct reflection on a mirror. Real respect is earned.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#30

Post by harryh » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #29

harryh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think if people consistently referred to a group of people that included you as "hey girls" you would find it....a bit strange?

I think policing wrongthink in everyday conversation is about as effective as painting the correct reflection on a mirror. Real respect is earned.

So when you refer to a group of mix gendered people as "guys", it's an indication that you don't respect the women in the group? They haven't earned if from you yet?