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Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

theatlantic.com

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Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#11

Post by klmadfejno »

I saw the Anti Racist author, Ibram Kendi, speak. Honestly I wasn't really impressed with what he was saying. Yes, structural racism is a real problem. But the concept of anti-racism just did not feel well defined and just begging for semantic ambiguity that distracts from the point at hand, much like how feminism suffered from allowing detractors to claim it was about females asserting supremacy. Ideological terms move the conversation away from ideas and towards meta-arguments around what the ideology is. I found this article somewhat hard to follow but it's last paragraph seems to resonate with that.

What is anti-racism? Is it:

* taking proactive steps to combat racism rather than trying to avoid taking part in it?

* asserting more power to minority communities that have been harmed by structural racism?

* a means to justify breaking down dominantly white structures even if there's not obviously malicious racial actions at play?

Which of these are good? Which of these are obviously good without nuanced discussion? If it's something like the third one, does it seem like a good idea to call that model "anti-racist" in a way that clearly antagonizes the other party merely for existing?

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#12

Post by hirundo »

I had a girlfriend in high school that learned about feminism, and developed an annoying habit of playing "gotcha" with anything that could be spun as chauvinist. For instance anyone saying "C'mon you guys let's go eat" would get a lecture about how using the word "guys" to a mixed sex group was being oppressive. She didn't say "patriarchal" only because that word wasn't in currency yet. Years later her gotcha shtick became her profession as a college professor who taught it to a new generation, year after year.

I think the events at those meetings are more about the joy of the gotcha than anti-racism versus non-racism. It just feels good to catch someone out, to be the one who sees it first. Like most pleasures it has addictive power.

It wasn't because the anti-racists were actually racists that they were triggered by a white man bouncing a black baby on his lap. It was because they were scanning desperately for a gotcha to feed their habit. For a target that you disagree with, a behavior has a much lower threshold to become a gotcha. If it wasn't for the baby it could have been his supercilious smile or hair style.

In modern anti-racism, not only does a gotcha not need to be justified with argument, any criticism of the gotcha is another gotcha. What I have written here is just more evidence of my own racism and sexism. They've got me.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#13

Post by nojokes »

happytoexplain wrote: post #9
nojokes wrote: post #2

It looks to me that people have lost their minds - they have turned anti racism into clear and pure racism. This is also how we should call people like Robin Broshi - racist.

Frankly I think neither "side" in most of these arguments is clearly and consistently racist (though obviously racism is a huge problem in society regardless of these arguments), and both "sides" tend to jump to accusations of racism too quickly. I'm not putting forward a "both sides are just as bad" argument - far from it - but I'm not making that distinction right now. What I am saying is that, in cases where I do…

Robin Broshi is a special kind of racist. Perhaps even Racist with capital R.

When I see two people sitting, she sees two people of different skin color sitting.

Then she creates some construction to justify her racism.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#14

Post by everdrive »

It’s interesting (and quite frustrating) — these are the social hysterias of our time. Could you have successfully navigated the inquisition without lying about what you believe? Obviously, no one is being tortured or killed like in the inquisition, and I simply mean to compare the coerced religious zeal. No one is ever pure enough.

I often think that this is simply a mixing of impulses. Everyone has an impulse to socially judge; a tribal impulse. Most of us do not have so strong an impulse, or otherwise can easily keep it at bay. But, what happens to that tribal impulse when you think you’re fighting for good and evil? Is there anything left to temper it? Should it even be tempered? And what happens when all the fates align: and the tribal impulse, the self righteous impulse, and the attraction to power all agree on the course of action. People must be relieved from their positions of power. And you can conveniently lean on the most righteous of your motivations, while also serving your basest motivations.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#16

Post by acephal »

Then you have the even worse trend of a certain kind of 'hip/urban' non-Black belittling a conservative Black person or a Black person who doesn't represent themself along the lines of what popular culture communicates is what counts as valid Blackness , as if the 'hip' non-Black is _more_ locked in arms with Black experience than the actual Black person they're belittling (I'm looking at you Andrew Schulz!).

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#17

Post by ardy42 »

hirundo wrote: post #12

I had a girlfriend in high school that learned about feminism, and developed an annoying habit of playing "gotcha" with anything that could be spun as chauvinist. For instance anyone saying "C'mon you guys let's go eat" would get a lecture about how using the word "guys" to a mixed sex group was being oppressive. She didn't say "patriarchal" only because that word wasn't in currency yet. Years later her gotcha shtick…

> I think the events at those meetings are more about the joy of the gotcha than anti-racism versus non-racism. It just feels good to catch someone out, to be the one who sees it first. Like most pleasures it has addictive power.

I think there's a term for that feeling: self-righteousness.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#18

Post by bbatha »

hirundo wrote: post #12

I had a girlfriend in high school that learned about feminism, and developed an annoying habit of playing "gotcha" with anything that could be spun as chauvinist. For instance anyone saying "C'mon you guys let's go eat" would get a lecture about how using the word "guys" to a mixed sex group was being oppressive. She didn't say "patriarchal" only because that word wasn't in currency yet. Years later her gotcha shtick…

Criticizing "you guys" as a sexist term when describing a mixed gender group is a) true because there are multiple genders in the group and b) not a gotcha. She wasn't baiting you into saying sexist remarks to criticize you as a chauvinist. Her over enthusiasm may have been annoying sure, but calling it "gotcha" behavior is a way to casually dismiss anti-racists and anti-sexists without actually in their engaging arguments or even the slightest bit of self reflection.

> In modern anti-racism, not only does a gotcha not need to be justified with argument,

> would get a lecture about how using the word "guys" to a mixed sex group was being oppressive.

Sounds like you received a justified argument that you are choosing to ignore.

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#19

Post by hirundo »

bbatha wrote: post #18
hirundo wrote: post #12

I had a girlfriend in high school that learned about feminism, and developed an annoying habit of playing "gotcha" with anything that could be spun as chauvinist. For instance anyone saying "C'mon you guys let's go eat" would get a lecture about how using the word "guys" to a mixed sex group was being oppressive. She didn't say "patriarchal" only because that word wasn't in currency yet. Years later her gotcha shtick…

Criticizing "you guys" as a sexist term when describing a mixed gender group is a) true because there are multiple genders in the group and b) not a gotcha. She wasn't baiting you into saying sexist remarks to criticize you as a chauvinist. Her over enthusiasm may have been annoying sure, but calling it "gotcha" behavior is a way to casually dismiss anti-racists and anti-sexists without actually in their engaging arg…

I ignored the argument because I could not have reasonably engaged with it and decided that I disagree?

Re: Anti-Racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

#20

Post by entropea »

raziel2p wrote: post #8

I was politically active on the left over 10 years ago and I still remember how a loud minority seemed obsessed with factions and seeding discord. It was a really effective tactic, made me wonder if it was active sabotage at times. Not much has changed.

I'm still active on the left and very much into social & economic justice, but I often notice how much division these anti-sexist and anti-racist tactics create inside the left political spectrum. I don't think a lot of these tactics are friendly, engaging, and a lot are destined to generate more negative outcomes and thoughts about left policy, structural racism & sexism in my opinion. As Fred Hampton once said, you don't fight fire with fire, you fight fire with water.

I agree that it almost seems like active sabotage.

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