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Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

lyft.com

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Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#261

Post by sb8244 »

Androider wrote: post #132
sb8244 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking through this more. I've noticed that a lot of drivers work both Uber and Lyft (flexibility allows this). Would that go away in the employee model?

I would think so, no more running multiple apps as a driver if you're employed. Because the pool of drivers for a particular company would be massively reduced as well, driver down-time between rides on their platform may be expected to significantly decrease, which was a major reason for running multiple apps in the first place. Basically the remaining drivers will essentially partition themselves into two pools, dr…

Thanks for taking it a step further. I didn't think about that perspective but I could see it playing out that way.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#262

Post by dntrkv »

tedivm wrote: post #77
manigandham wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of the thousands of Uber drivers I've talked to over the past 8 years have said work flexibility is their greatest advantage. Many of them already have other commitments and drive for extra income. If they wanted a FT driving job, they would've gotten one.

AB5 left that flexibility in place. It allows for flexible hours and the ability to pick and choose the rides they accept. Nothing about this legislation or the court case before it took that flexibility away. Nothing about it requires people to be "full time" either.

The legislation doesn't outright ban those things, but the economics won't work out at scale if Uber has to classify the drivers as employees.

Do you want low-commitment employment (from both sides) or do you want employee benefits. You can't have both.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#263

Post by gridlockd »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #192
rsweeney21 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their business model is on-demand transportation. The business model doesn't work if the workforce is not also on-demand. I don't think that's spin, but maybe society decides that we don't like on-demand businesses.

> The business model doesn't work if the workforce is not also on-demand. Have they tried it to confirm it 'doesn't work'? Maybe rideshare companies need to reduce their cut, and start putting more of that money into the driver's pocket. Doesn't mean it can't be a profitable business, though possibly low-margin. Have they tried paring back development costs, marketing costs, etc?

Uber and Lyft aren't profitable, never have been and may never be. The idea is that if only you build a strong enough brand and network, somehow there will be money in it.

In the meantime, they'll operate at a loss. If they leave the California market, they'll simple lose money slower.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#264

Post by lhorie »

tyrust wrote: post #161
majormajor wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when Uber and Lyft shut down they get neither healthcare nor this income. Unless they find another job. Which they were free to do anyway. But that's not always so simple... So what problem did we just solve?

It's hard to say because Lyft wasn't forced to shut down, they're doing it preemptively, perhaps to push for a vote on their Prop.

I was under the impression they're doing it because it'll be illegal for drivers to operate as contractors come tomorrow.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#265

Post by supernova87a »

dmode wrote: post #243
supernova87a wrote: post #229

I was really surprised by the 3rd requirement of the law to qualify as a contractor. Recall, the new law says that you can be counted as a contractor (instead of an employee) only if all 3 conditions are met [1]: -- Are free from control of the company in how the job is executed -- Perform work outside the company's normal line of business -- Are customarily engaged in this work anyway as an independent worker This l…

I don't think the third pillar is a problem. You can claim you customarily engaging in driving as a work. The primary problem Uber and Lyft are running into is #2. The courts think that drivers perform work within the company's normal line of business, while Uber and Lyft believe they are a technology marketplace and not a transportation company.

Well, on #2 I agreed with the court's analysis -- at least in how Lyft/Uber are operating now. These companies would not exist if not for being in the transportation business. It is a real stretch to divorce them from the aspect of cars driving -- that is their very business.

On #3, so companies would just ask the people driving whether "this is your customary line of work" and if you don't answer right, you're not allowed to drive? Or would there be some independent way this would be verified? Or is it up to the company to test how much risk they're willing to look the other way on?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#266

Post by dmode »

manigandham wrote: post #4

California (govt) is fantastic at making California worse.

I live in California and I think the state government does things that make it better and worse at the same time. Look many many laws that we take for granted origin from California. For example, SF was the first city to start granting marriage licenses to LGBT couples. Now most states follow that rule. CA was first to implement mileage requirements. Now many states follow that rule. CA was first to subsidize clean air vehicles. Now it is common across the nation. CA was ahead with medical marijuana and recognizing the role of marijuana as recreational. So it seems like government is making it worse, CA legislature is always pushing the limits and seems worse because it is the first one to do so. I bet that there will be some middle ground in the gig economy due to this law, which will become the model for the rest of the country.

That said, this particular bill is pretty bad

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#267

Post by amoitnga »

manigandham wrote: post #141
throwaway123x2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People freely worked under abusive conditions in factories in the Industrial Revolution before the labour rights movement. No one wants to go back to that.

This is a tired argument. Please name the abusive conditions that actually apply here. AB5 affects more than just ridesharing too. Many writers, artists and other creative professionals are suffering as well. What abuse are they affected by?

you dont get vacation days. you re not paid for national holidays off days. you dont get sick days.

you may say it’s what contract is. but without me being able to see where to drive, whom to drive and set price as I wish, without affecting my rating - it’s just talk.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#268

Post by manigandham »

ciarannolan wrote: post #219
manigandham wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing this to poor laborers held hostage? Drivers are not forced into anything. They apply and can quit anytime. Earnings and fares are completely transparent. Their schedule is determined by them. Where's the exploitation? Have you ever driven for Uber? I find it odd that so many people claim to know better for others without any experience of the situation.

GP isn't comparing anything. They're pointing out how laughable a maxim like "People freely working is not exploitation." is.

It's laughable to think that having your passport taken is considered "freely" working.

You should explain exactly how these drivers are not free before arguing to take their freedom of work away.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#269

Post by lhorie »

theplague42 wrote: post #162
oliverx0 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is giving his point of view based on past experience. A lot of drivers see Uber as helpful side money, and that seems quite genuine. Those who see Uber this away are indeed seeing this opportunity taken away.

Does the California court order apply to these part-time drivers? I thought it only affected drivers essentially working full-time.

As far as I understand, it applies to all drivers, even ones that only drive 5 hours a week.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#270

Post by UncleOxidant »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #129
subdane wrote: post #31

Am I nuts, or is the heart of this issue really the fact that our healthcare system is built on tying benefits to full time jobs?

This is an interesting idea. Is this an unintended consequence of binding health insurance to your employment? According to the NYT: "During World War II, federal wage controls prevented employers from wooing workers with higher pay, so companies started offering health insurance as a way around the law. Of course, this form of nonmonetary compensation is still pay. When the war ended, the practice stuck." I would mu…

Moving to a single payer system would unleash a lot of latent entreprenurial activity and free companies of all sizes from having to provide health insurance. Great documentary here on the business case for moving to single payer: http://fixithealthcare.com/
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