Rideshare operations are being suspended in California • Hacker News Board

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#211

Post by School-Cotton » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #59

woeirua wrote: post #29

I suspect that California is going to backpedal on this pretty quickly. Uber and Lyft are popular. Going back to taxis is going to be very unpopular. IMO, if the California Republican party was smart they would make this a wedge issue in the next election. "Elect us, and we'll make it possible to use Uber again."

Who forced Lyft to shut down? Was it the state, or did they freely choose to cease operations? Obviously, spin will characterize this in any way that's advantageous. But nobody 'forced' Lyft to close.

The state made their business model illegal. Yes, technically that’s not the same thing as shutting them down, since they could have switched to a different business model, but it’s a distinction without a difference.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#212

Post by theplague42 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #154

subdane wrote: post #31

Am I nuts, or is the heart of this issue really the fact that our healthcare system is built on tying benefits to full time jobs?

A lot of these issues would go away if employers weren't responsible for providing healthcare group plans. But then again Europe also has similar drives to classify Uber/Lyft drivers as full time employees so they are entitled to other benefits and employment securities (but those don't exist in a very strong form in the USA anyways).

Employers are not required to provide health plans. The issue is that Uber provides _some_ employees with health plans while keeping their lower-paid workers classified as contractors, even if they work essentially full-time.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#213

Post by apta » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

tedivm wrote: post #88

ItMayWorkTryIt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not feasible to keep drivers on as employees legally. Some issues that come to mind that seem incredibly hard for uber/lyft to enforce but are mandatory for California employees: * Meal & rest breaks * Callback pay * Split Shift premiums * Reporting premium (if you show up to work, but less work to do than half your scheduled shift) The only way I see this working is somebody started some "Driver Pool" com…

AB5 explicitly allowed for flexible hours- it did not require "shifts" like you're talking about. It made allowances to give drivers the flexibility they want, but Uber and Lyft are upset that it also requires them to provide the option for insurance and that they'd have to pay into the unemployment pool.

They cannot be classified as employees to begin with. AB5 also harmed non-Uber/Lyft drivers, I came across several posts for programming gigs that said that they would not be able to accept offers from programmers in CA due to AB5. It's broken.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#214

Post by Androider » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #72

Yes, voters in the US want to give people education, healthcare, and unemployment (or basic income-ish) benefits. Voters in the US also don’t want to pay for any of this. Hence, the politicians that get elected are ones that give people education via student loans, and healthcare/unemployment benefits tied to employer/employment status. Those politicians get to claim they helped people, and they get to claim they kep…

In the US we pay hundreds of dollars in monthly medical premiums, thousands in deductibles per year, and still need to live in fear of surprise bankruptcy-level bills arriving if god forbid you collapse and need an emergency procedure at the closest out-of-network facility.

Absolute insanity. Yet changing this at a fundamental level is somehow considered radical, nothing we can do etc., except what every other western country has already done. We keep telling ourselves we have the best medical care in the world, which anyone who has lived outside the US for some time can attest is complete bullshit.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#215

Post by lm28469 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #164

lm28469 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point it's full blown Stockholm syndrome, they somehow managed to make people believe it's in their own interest to be denied basic worker rights. Make them believe they are "their own boss" and they'll accept everything, even if they're just a tiny cog in the giant money printing machine (money they'll never see the color of)

Basic worker rights? Have you ever worked as an independent contractor? What rights are you specifically talking about? People who have no idea or experience of others but want to remove their freedom and tell them what's best for them is far more insidious and dangerous.

> People who have no idea or experience of others but want to

That's the basis of society, people who have a better overall views of things decide for you all the time, and it should be like that.

What's the opposite ? Private for profit companies deciding what's better for "you" ? That's what Uber and Amazon are trying to do and that's why they lose dozens of court cases about workers rights all over the world.

I don't even get your point, "it's not as bad as X", ok but what's the goal ? Raise the bar so that everyone has access to safe, sustainable jobs or lower the bar to the lowest acceptable working conditions ?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#216

Post by mbesto » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #98

mbesto wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People freely working is not exploitation. Just because someone freely accepts work, doesn't mean its automatically free of exploitation. Exploitation just means one party is taking advantage of another parties weakness. Rideshare specifically - I don't think this exploitation is unilateral, but it does exist. Example - UAE commercial builders freely attracting Pakistan/India laborers and then holding their passpor…

You're comparing this to poor laborers held hostage? Drivers are not forced into anything. They apply and can quit anytime. Earnings and fares are completely transparent. Their schedule is determined by them. Where's the exploitation? Have you ever driven for Uber? I find it odd that so many people claim to know better for others without any experience of the situation.

Laborers in India/Pakistan were not forced to fly to UAE to take the job, but they did anyway.

> Have you ever driven for Uber? I find it odd that so many people claim to know better for others without any experience of the situation.

I have not, but calculating the economics is pretty damn simple, and their earnings are shit (most drivers dont take into account taxes, car costs, gas, car depreciation, etc.).

I think the problem is that you have to bifurcate those who want a full-time-like salary with those who drive to earn a few bucks, otherwise the discussion breaks down.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#217

Post by rodonn » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

joewadcan wrote: post #81

Pathetic... why not take the ~20% of drivers who put in 35h+ a week and make them employees to keep their service running and help their customers? ... Oh right because they can instead inflict pain 75 days before the carveout ballot measure they wrote. They aren't the innocent victims of gov't overreach for us to venerate. They stonewalled participation in writing a better AB5, because they want no rules but their o…

I don't see how the TESLA model could work with human employee drivers. Uber is already not making a profit with their current lower cost structure. TESLA with more expensive cars and more expensive employee costs, will almost certainly also lose money unless they substantially increase prices. And at the higher price level, demand is likely to be lower as well.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#218

Post by theplague42 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #169

bgorman wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heart of the issue is big labor unions want more power, and independent contractor status is a threat to their power.

Unsure why this is getting downvoted. Anyone who actually follows the money in this debate knows that the unions are very heavily financially invested in this and donate tons of money to the politicians that support anything that increases their power and influence. If unions were truly invested in the best interest of workers instead of the best interest of the union, they would value the desires of the 4/5 of drive…

Is there an Uber/Lyft driver union?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#219

Post by ciarannolan » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #98

mbesto wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People freely working is not exploitation. Just because someone freely accepts work, doesn't mean its automatically free of exploitation. Exploitation just means one party is taking advantage of another parties weakness. Rideshare specifically - I don't think this exploitation is unilateral, but it does exist. Example - UAE commercial builders freely attracting Pakistan/India laborers and then holding their passpor…

You're comparing this to poor laborers held hostage? Drivers are not forced into anything. They apply and can quit anytime. Earnings and fares are completely transparent. Their schedule is determined by them. Where's the exploitation? Have you ever driven for Uber? I find it odd that so many people claim to know better for others without any experience of the situation.

GP isn't comparing anything. They're pointing out how laughable a maxim like "People freely working is not exploitation." is.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#220

Post by pmcollins » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #131

Lot of my friends who work in non tech jobs use driving for Uber or Lyft as a way to either get a little extra cash, or bridge themselves across gaps in employment. This would devastate them. Absolutely heartless move on behalf of the California government. Don’t kick the little guys while they’re down to make some political point. It’s not the time.

The interesting thing is that this may not have been a heartless move, it seems to have been, from what I can tell, a well-meaning move that is going to hurt the very people politicians were trying to help. I feel like this is a theme of the last 100 years repeating itself over and over.

The road to hell...