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Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

businessinsider.com

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Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#151

Post by mrow84 »

unfortun8 wrote: post #116
mrow84 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fairness is not about everyone getting the same amount just for existing, for that in itself is not fair. Can you explain why? And if your answer amounts to "because people provide different amounts of [effort|value] to society" how would you reply to "so what?".

“1 in 7 billion uses luxury of online anonymity to play at being a nihilist. Forgets real world self and political power is limited to whatever the masses enable. Would rather ostricize self politically than speak up.”

I presume you are aiming this at me, and if so it doesn't apply - I was simply asking for a rationale for the original claim that "Fairness is not about everyone getting the same amount just for existing, for that in itself is not fair."

I would suggest that your retort, presuming that is what it is, is mere posturing; either you have a substantive answer to the question or not - so far you have not provided one.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#152

Post by alistairSH »

luckylion wrote: post #137
alistairSH wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxing the national economy, with distribution locally. IE, tax a wealthy NYer, transfer to a poor Appalachian, and the Appalachian economy sees a small boost.

... with the added friction of a UBI system. In most Western countries, you'll also have plenty of transfers to other countries, recent immigrants supporting their families, buying properties in "the old country" etc. Being able to do just that is a major incentive for immigration, both within Europe and from outside Europe. That's development aid with extra steps then. Granted, you might argue that it's more efficie…

The argument is generally that a single UBI system has lower friction than many disparate social support programs.

The goal is to remove food stamps, income insurance (the dole, welfare, whatever you want to call it), rent subsidies, etc. All replaced with a single cash payment. Fewer programs, no income validation, no enforcement action after the fact, etc.

This also has the benefit of reducing friction on the consumption side. No need to exchange food stamps for cash at 50% face value in order to by beer, just take some of the cash and buy beer. Empower individuals to live how they want.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#153

Post by mrow84 »

aeternum wrote: post #125
mrow84 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fairness is not about everyone getting the same amount just for existing, for that in itself is not fair. Can you explain why? And if your answer amounts to "because people provide different amounts of [effort|value] to society" how would you reply to "so what?".

As a society we should increase the standard of living for everyone. In order to do that, people need to be motivated to contribute.

I might agree with what you are saying, but it doesn't address the question, which is to provide a rationale for the claim "Fairness is not about everyone getting the same amount just for existing, for that in itself is not fair."

Your statement is about motivations, not fairness.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#154

Post by autisticcurio »

Well as Science continues to steal everyone's privacy, and Capitalism is the defacto remuneration system in place, I think its only fair we get a universal income if Govt's want us to be good little citizens. Considering the current laws in place, like Copyright, Patents etc etc, its very hard for new comers to enter the market and compete, not to mention the massive setup costs to get into some lines of business. Financial cleansing is perfectly legal in this day and age.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#155

Post by dane-pgp »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #144
aeternum wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society we should increase the standard of living for everyone. In order to do that, people need to be motivated to contribute.

Which is why Communism doesn't work. If what you get has no relationship to the work you do, there is no reason to do the work. But that's the problem a UBI solves -- you still get it when you take a job but you also get what you earn from the job. As compared with the status quo, which is already worse than this, because we have existing assistance programs that you lose by taking a job or earning more money.

> Which is why Communism doesn't work. If what you get has no relationship to the work you do, there is no reason to do the work.

It may surprise people to learn that even the Soviets effectively acknowledged the validity of that second statement. According to the 1936 Constitution of the USSR:

"ARTICLE 118. Citizens of the U.S.S.R. have the right to work, that is, are guaranteed the right to employment and payment for their work in accordance With its quantity and quality."

https://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons04....

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#156

Post by djrogers »

missedthecue wrote: post #2

These studies don't really prove anything. Common arguments in favor of these studies - "They prove people don't quit work on UBI!" - No, they prove that people who are in a program that is very clearly temporary will not end their careers for a short pilot program. This means nothing. "They prove people won't spend it on drugs, booze, and lotto tickets!" - No. If you make $1k from a job and $1k from a pilot program…

> What UBI skeptical people want to know is where is the proof that we can afford to tax ourselves to pay ourselves

What UBI skeptics seem to be avoiding, ignoring, or unaware of, is just how prevalent this situation already is. Most of the UBI fans I know want to replace the overlapping, redundant, and inefficient welfare systems currently in place with a simple, efficient, and universal benefit.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#157

Post by unfortun8 »

mrow84 wrote: post #151
unfortun8 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“1 in 7 billion uses luxury of online anonymity to play at being a nihilist. Forgets real world self and political power is limited to whatever the masses enable. Would rather ostricize self politically than speak up.”

I presume you are aiming this at me, and if so it doesn't apply - I was simply asking for a rationale for the original claim that "Fairness is not about everyone getting the same amount just for existing, for that in itself is not fair." I would suggest that your retort, presuming that is what it is, is mere posturing; either you have a substantive answer to the question or not - so far you have not provided one.

I would suggest you disabuse yourself of the notion such an answer is owed.

Someone putting time into a response you’ll accept is a privilege you earn, not an obligation you demand.

If your take is “so what”, fine stay home. You become politically irrelevant. “So what” that you even exist and to your political positions then.

Our biology doesn’t allow for altruism. John Stuart Mill already covered this; the government should strive to be blind to bias in its institutions, but there’s no stopping a community from literally ejecting the dead weight.

Don’t get involved in political conversation that doesn’t draw you in. Whatever. Nobody has to take your indifference to any topic as anything more than the emotional fart of a nobody who is indifferent to supporting people that to them end up being total nobodies.

Exist in your circularness of nobody caring. It’s easier when nobody matters.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#158

Post by aeternum »

mrow84 wrote: post #153
aeternum wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society we should increase the standard of living for everyone. In order to do that, people need to be motivated to contribute.

I might agree with what you are saying, but it doesn't address the question, which is to provide a rationale for the claim "Fairness is not about everyone getting the same amount just for existing, for that in itself is not fair." Your statement is about motivations, not fairness.

You're right, it's not very clear, this is what I was going for:

It's not very fair to society as a whole if we implement policies which impede standard of living increases.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#159

Post by veddox »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #122

I'm not even going to bother to read this article. I'm not a fan of UBI and I think this is an admission that we don't have real solutions for the pandemic and we aren't even going to try to come up with real solutions, like helping people get into remote work and creating germ control solutions (like Little Caesar's pizza portal) for things where remote work is not an option. I mean, glad to see they don't want thei…

This isn‘t the government carrying out the trial, but a crowd-sourced private non-profit.

Re: Germany begins 3-year universal-basic-income trial

#160

Post by colourgarden »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #149
colourgarden wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you assume this is in response to the pandemic?

Fifty-five years of living and formally studying how people work and doing tons of therapy and yadda. We've been murdering Black people in the US for years and years and years. The usual response is "Well, you gotta understand. Policing is hard and it's a judgement call and it's unfortunate that so man Blacks end up dead after the cops get hold of them, but ...blah blah blah." And then a Black guy was murdered during…

Okaaaaaaay then.

Your fifty-five years of studying how people work didn't extend to anywhere outside the US then.

I'll leave you to it. Have a pleasant day.

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