The Montessori Mafia • Hacker News Board

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#151

Post by arn » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 1:29 PM UTC

three14 wrote: post #131

arn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's still so wrong. Even if we can agree standard education is bad, that doesn't make everything else good by default. Including just "let your kid do things he finds interesting and take him to museums and crap".

How do you know that the Montessori method is what makes Montessori good, though, rather than the GP's theory?

It doesn't matter. It seems there has been a least one study that suggests Montessori is "better" than standard school (the premise of this whole discussion).

But to try to extend that to say that almost anything BUT standard school is good puts a huge burden of proof on the original poster.

If a>b, it doesn't automatically make c-z better than b too.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#152

Post by pnathan » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 2:20 PM UTC

khafra wrote: post #150

gmac wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to Steiner school, and it's true that the theory is essentially nothing-but-crazy. But the practice of it can be utterly fantastic, and at least where I went the theory was entirely unmentioned. In the final half hour of school we had a lesson on "where did the last 14 years of your education come from?" -- we apparently (for example) literally have seven bodies, but you would thankfully never have guessed it…

If there's a word for "deriving effective practice from insane theory," it's probably something like "to rudstein." Biodynamic farming uses esoteric geomancy techniques like burying a cow's horn filled with powdered quartz, and when used in vineyards yields some truly excellent wines.

Say what?!

Can you elaborate more on this?

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#153

Post by pnathan » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 2:21 PM UTC

jhuckestein wrote: post #107

jhuckestein wrote: post #90

"What is 10 plus 1?" "101?" "I'm sorry M'a'm, your son is an idiot"

Maybe I was too subtle. The message is: our yes or no school system fails to award perfectly reasonable thoughts such as that 10 plus one might be 101.

No, that's not reasonable.

Concatenation is not the reasonable answer to addition of numbers.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#154

Post by crpatino » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 4:56 PM UTC

zipdog wrote: post #71

crpatino wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither good or bad. It is a clue that she probably is good at "symbolic thinking". More of this stuff to come in the near future. Just make sure she has plenty of chances to develop this (probably innate) ability. On the other hand, as she grows up, you probably should keep an eye on her and help to mitigate any shortcomings that'd eventually show up. But this is the same with all children anyway.

It could be a clue about symbolic thinking, or it might be the result of the approach used. I've seen an approach where letter-shaped toys are handed out as toys, which provides a concrete object to associate to the letter. Children using this seem to be able to pick up the alphabet around 1 year old fairly easily.

Yes, it could be... my comment was really more about the idea that any persistent advantage that may come out is going to be driven by the child's interests. As parents, I believe, we should encourage more than enforce.

I also think that drill down has its use, but it is reserved for cases where the kid is visibly falling behind some minimum standard. And the bar must be set really low for that. By definition, roughly 50% should be "below average" in any given skill. If the skill is important and the deviation from the norm is severe, you have to push the kid regardless.

As a personal example. At home, it is not acceptable to be unable to get yourself out of water. This is a life or death issue; so, my kids have been enrolled in swimming classes, from early age, whether they like it or not. They don't have to go in competitions, they don't even have to be fast or have a good technique... but it is not acceptable that they are not at least as good as myself. At this point, my 8yo is probably a better swimmer than either me or my wife (who was in an amateur team in her teens)... but I will never ask for more than an honest effort.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#155

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 5:06 PM UTC

speleding wrote: post #129

kenjackson wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kids are not allowed artificial flavoring in their lunch food... Why would that make you cringe?

It makes me cringe because there is no scientific evidence at all that artificial food additives are bad for kids. Quite the opposite actually, artificial additives are tested to death before they are allowed on the market. It has no relation to the Montessori philosophy, I was just giving an example of the "kind of person" the typically teacher is there, basing decisions more on feelings than rational evidence.

There is some evidence. Maybe not yet convincing, but if I was a daycare provider, I think I'd try to minimize hyperactivity induced by artificial colors. See:

http://children.webmd.com/news/20110330/fda-mulls-safety-of-...

Obviously not conclusive, but I don't think I'd cringe if a daycare instituted such a policy, especially since they provide the food anyways. And I'm not sure what "feeling" people get about artificial products in food. It's not the type of thing people get "feelings" about, is it? I suspect someone there read some studies about potential negative impacts of it, so they decided to play it safe. If there's virtually zero cost to such a thing, I'd hardly consinder that irrational.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#156

Post by Shorel » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 6:16 PM UTC

zipdog wrote: post #71

crpatino wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither good or bad. It is a clue that she probably is good at "symbolic thinking". More of this stuff to come in the near future. Just make sure she has plenty of chances to develop this (probably innate) ability. On the other hand, as she grows up, you probably should keep an eye on her and help to mitigate any shortcomings that'd eventually show up. But this is the same with all children anyway.

It could be a clue about symbolic thinking, or it might be the result of the approach used. I've seen an approach where letter-shaped toys are handed out as toys, which provides a concrete object to associate to the letter. Children using this seem to be able to pick up the alphabet around 1 year old fairly easily.

Making the Roman alphabet so ingrained may make very hard to learn other alphabets, like Greek, Cyrillic, Hiragana or the Chinese one.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#157

Post by gevertulley » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

Perhaps what is required here is a re-examination of the fundamental goals of what we refer to as "education." Is the purpose of school to teach a set of curriculum or to inculcate the habits necessary to become courageous explorers of the world and inventors of our own destinies? Montessori is just one alternative, but now, in a time of rapid change, is the time to begin and support multiple experiments. We need to explore the full range of functional pedagogies and see what new ways of teaching and learning can be developed. Looking for one "best" context or approach for learning is probably never going to work - the fundamental assumption is wrong.

An educational monoculture suffers the same vulnerabilities that a biological monoculture does. We should foster a diversity of approaches, supporting the sharing of techniques, approaches, and contexts.

This is why we are starting a new K-12 school, based on some new ideas (Tinkering School, and A Curious Summer) and incorporating some really old ideas (apprenticeship and mastery). We call it Brightworks (http://sfbrightworks.org). Have a look at our approach, share your ideas, join us at the edge of innovation in education.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#158

Post by SwellJoe » Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 6:47 PM UTC

dman wrote: post #84

SwellJoe wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which, when you realize that most working musicians make less from their music than they would make doing a full-time minimum wage job, is perhaps even more impressive. Even successful musicians are rarely rich by Silicon Valley standards.

Most Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are rarely rich by Silicon Valley standards.

The successful ones often are.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#159

Post by Ratfish » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:40 AM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #142

mkjones wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't accepting 1000 applications, and teaching Montessori-style to 500 of them and traditional-style to the other 500 pretty accurately control for all of those self-selection biases?

Only if you put the 500 non-Montessori children in a separate school, with the same level of funding as the Montessori school. From the little that I know about these studies, at least some of the differences could be explained by the mixing of the 'control group' into an environment that is less ambitious or focused as the Montessori group. (I walk pass 2 schools on my way to work each day - one Montessori, one not,…

To add to this, The Steiner system places a lot of value in surroundings and buildings and a lot of time and effort (or is it money?) goes into making the "learning environment" inspiring and stimulating.... Etc etc. Basically the ones I've been to look fantastic.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#160

Post by Afton » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:41 PM UTC

ern wrote: post #149

Afton wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing is that, as a parent, it's easy to fall into the trap of comparing milestones. There isn't the evidence that e.g. knowing the alphabet early means being a better reader later in life. Just like early walking milestones don't lead to 'better walking'.

Your comment resonated with me. My wife's very verbal niece could name 12 animals in a book of animals at 18 months. Her mother drilled her, and then they would take the book around to show how clever their daughter was. I'd feel quite bad since my son was the same age and wasn't talking much, let alone identifying animals. The constant showing off and comparisons by my in-laws led to us taking him to a speech pathol…

Right. And yet it's hard not to feel that swell of pride when your child 'overachieves' on some milestone. But often when a child hits a milestone early, it's actually because they are doing something differently than age-equivalent children or adults do it. And that something may well be an intellectual dead end. The niece in your story may be tagging the name 'tiger' to something like length of tail, or surrounding context. And I could write books on the need for serious investigations into what kids mean when they use certain words.