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The Montessori Mafia

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141–150 of 160 posts

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#141
post #62
post #4

I really like the idea of Montessori, and if I have the cash I'd like to send my future kids there someday. That being said, I see correlation here, not causation. To be a little bit tongue and cheek, I could write the headline: "99% of successful people do not attend Montessori schools"

You too can cheaply imitate a Montessori school by a)Taking your kid out of public school and b)Encourage your kid to do things he finds interesting with you at home and take him to museums and crap True, it requires a mostly unemployed parent, but Montessori has just discovered how kids learn naturally at a young age. Just like a kid learns a language without having to be formally taught, he learns other things with…

> Any parent can do it.

Yeah, but it's easier to shift the responsibility to other, more "professional-looking" people, especially if you have the money to do that.

Which doesn't mean that I don't agree with you. One of my first childhood memories is of my father teaching me the letters of the alphabet, when I was 4 or so. He was on a lunch-break, I remember that, he worked on a construction site. After that it was easy to learn to read by myself at about 5, one day I just opened a kids' book and, as I had already knew what those letters meant, it was easy to start reading. He also taught me the first words and expressions in French ("ceci est une pipe" and all that), when I was 8 or 9. Nothing too fancy, he just taught me how to pronounce the words in French and we read a couple of simple phrases out-loud. That gave me a huge advantage over my school-colleagues a couple of years later, when we started to learn French in school.

It also mattered a lot for me that my parents' house was full of books, and the fact that I saw my father reading each and every day.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#142
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't control for "bright parents." You can control for parents' income, parents' education, parents' height and weight, but you can't control for the kind of attitude towards childrearing and towards life that would cause a couple to send their kids to Montessori school. This is why so many social science results that are "controlled" for various variables actually don't make any sense.

Wouldn't accepting 1000 applications, and teaching Montessori-style to 500 of them and traditional-style to the other 500 pretty accurately control for all of those self-selection biases?

Only if you put the 500 non-Montessori children in a separate school, with the same level of funding as the Montessori school. From the little that I know about these studies, at least some of the differences could be explained by the mixing of the 'control group' into an environment that is less ambitious or focused as the Montessori group.

(I walk pass 2 schools on my way to work each day - one Montessori, one not, sometimes around the time where children are dropped off by their parents. Even not knowing anything about the relative merits of the systems, I can easily tell which school I'd want to send my daughter to in a few years time; at the risk of sounding elitist, it's like standing next to the exit of an opera performance vs a soccer stadium).

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#143
post #4

I really like the idea of Montessori, and if I have the cash I'd like to send my future kids there someday. That being said, I see correlation here, not causation. To be a little bit tongue and cheek, I could write the headline: "99% of successful people do not attend Montessori schools"

Agreed, Black Swan and all.

I have two friends who have experience with Montessori, and like you, I'll put together funds to get my future kids in there some day.

One of my friends is an Aikidoka. He had started hanging out with some folks who turned out to operate a Montessori school. They liked him enough that they invited him to teach there -- more to expose the kids to different ideas. My friend tells me that there is a selection process involved for the kids, and not all kids can get in. They'd put them in the environment and see how they acted. My friend and those operators are pitching Aikido to the national board as a form of conflict resolution. Which, if you know anything about Aikido, is remarkable.

The other friend is the only old man I know who says things like, "I can't wait to see what will happen", and "Using predictive modeling is like driving by looking at the rear view mirror." Most old people I know are quietly staring at death looming in the future. This guy put his son through Montessori. His grandson is now in Montessori, though the daughter-in-law objected at first.

From the comments from these two, from the smattering of articles I've read about them, the key behavioral patterning related to startup is the development of gumption. That is, instead of using external reward-punishment and coloring-inside-the-approved-lines, these kids go out and do what they want, using their own internal sense of right and wrong. It's something I've been hacking my own mind with much of my adult life -- through things like playing Go. Does this guarantee these a Montessori grad to be wildly successful at building out a startup? No. But it will save a lot of misery from twisting yourself, cringing from Authority or staying trapped in a losing situation (a la Gervais Principle).

That is way better than recruiting Tiger Moms and Dragon Ladies.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kids are not allowed artificial flavoring in their lunch food... Why would that make you cringe?

It makes me cringe because there is no scientific evidence at all that artificial food additives are bad for kids. Quite the opposite actually, artificial additives are tested to death before they are allowed on the market. It has no relation to the Montessori philosophy, I was just giving an example of the "kind of person" the typically teacher is there, basing decisions more on feelings than rational evidence.

"I was just giving an example of the "kind of person" the typically teacher is there"

I was afraid to say something to this effect, but now that you've started it I might as well share this little anecdote ;)

Around the corner of my office is a small school for highly gifted children. They work together with a 'regular' Montessori school here and they follow the same approach - let children find their own interests, stimulate those etc. (disclaimer: I don't know much about Montessori, it's just what I understood from how it works).

Either way, back in 2008 most of a certain social class in Western Europe was infatuated with Obama, how he was going to change world etc. With 'a certain social class' I'm stereotyping, I know - it's relevant for the point; I'm talking about the Prius-driving, Fair Trade shopping salon socialist with cushy government jobs with near-100% job certainty who've never in their lives run a business or done any work that is not in one way or another funded by tax payers. (I'm including university teachers and professors here, they're overrepresented in my neighborhood).

Anyway, around US election time, this school for highly gifted children I mentioned hung out some drawing of the children on their window. One of them said (I'm paraphrasing here, I don't remember the exact wording) 'Obama will clean up the mess that Bush left behind him'. This in a hand writing and on a drawing that showed that the child could not have been much older than 6 or 7.

This is my impression of many of these schools - highly opinionated teachers and parents who live in a upper-middle class cocoon who preach the word of 'free exploration of ideas' and 'self-actualization' but only when it leads to the same type of thinking they themselves adhere to.

I guess it's logical - I'd be abhorred too if my daughter grows up to be a socialist or communist. Everybody wants their children to be at least somewhat like them. Still, indoctrinating children at that age with political propaganda - it gives me a bad feeling.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#145
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don't want to "get it wrong" I, thankfully, realized this pretty early on, with help from my siblings. Collectively, we quit caring about gold stars, and started to actually learn . IMO, the main problem is that we're taught that it's bad to be wrong , and not good enough to try to outweigh the risks if you're not already fluent in the area. Success is essentially all that's valued at both an educational and s…

> Success is essentially all that's valued at both an educational and social level, which entirely ignores the value of actually learning something, improving your future attempts. Which I find quite strange, especially as our Western culture wouldn't have existed without Socrates, who championed the exact same ideas you're talking about :)

How's that Socrates championed these ideas on success? I'm curious. I never studied Socrates in detail and the closest I've come are hodgepodge collection of folklore. Do you have any quotes or references?

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#146
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions a study that shows the direct influence of a Montessori school. The study was published in Science . You can read it here: http://www.montessori-science.org/montessori_science_journal... (click "see article full text") An excerpt: On several dimensions, children at a public inner city Montessori school had superior outcomes relative to a sample of Montessori applicants who, because of a random lo…

I understand that research into something as complicated as education can't control all variables. But I can immediately think of numerous other variables - what about the other children at the schools backgrounds? what about the level of funding the schools received? the level of training of the teachers? I think Montessori and Steiner are far more dogmatic than sense dictates - but stay this way, despite the negati…

Wouldn't that just mean that parents would add some imaginative play with their own kids?

What do you think about this? http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100311190247AA...

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#147
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that research into something as complicated as education can't control all variables. But I can immediately think of numerous other variables - what about the other children at the schools backgrounds? what about the level of funding the schools received? the level of training of the teachers? I think Montessori and Steiner are far more dogmatic than sense dictates - but stay this way, despite the negati…

Wouldn't that just mean that parents would add some imaginative play with their own kids? What do you think about this? http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100311190247AA...

Yes most likely, believe me I think there are fantastic Montessori schools out there. I just think that they are dogmatic about these questions for the sake of dogma.

If we just looked at all schools like that study did, even with a lottery, we'd probably come to the conclusion that the stodgiest, most regressive kinds of top private schools is the way to go.

*Edit: Read the link more thoroughly. This answer is completely subjective but I can't really believe many people would agree with that characterisation of imaginative play and creativity who weren't rationalising their belief in a particular dogma. It doesn't ring true to me at all.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#148
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Success is essentially all that's valued at both an educational and social level, which entirely ignores the value of actually learning something, improving your future attempts. Which I find quite strange, especially as our Western culture wouldn't have existed without Socrates, who championed the exact same ideas you're talking about :)

How's that Socrates championed these ideas on success? I'm curious. I never studied Socrates in detail and the closest I've come are hodgepodge collection of folklore. Do you have any quotes or references?

> I'm curious. I never studied Socrates in detail and the closest I've come are hodgepodge collection of folklore

First and most important thing, when reading Plato you always hear Socrates say again and again that one should "know himself" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself#By_Plato). I don't have any exact citation at hand, you can find the exact links on wikipedia, but this theme seams to permeate all his speeches. Sometimes even if it's not said in plain words you kind of feel that that's what he has been after all along, i.e. a better understanding of oneself.

And there's also Socrate's mistrust regarding books, which isn't directed at the physical objects, but more at what the books represent, condensed wisdom that many of us already take for granted without questioning. In certain ways that's very similar to what the modern educational system does to today's kids, I mean we take lots of things for granted without bothering of thinking with our heads anymore.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#149
post #80
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be a clue about symbolic thinking, or it might be the result of the approach used. I've seen an approach where letter-shaped toys are handed out as toys, which provides a concrete object to associate to the letter. Children using this seem to be able to pick up the alphabet around 1 year old fairly easily.

The important thing is that, as a parent, it's easy to fall into the trap of comparing milestones. There isn't the evidence that e.g. knowing the alphabet early means being a better reader later in life. Just like early walking milestones don't lead to 'better walking'.

Your comment resonated with me. My wife's very verbal niece could name 12 animals in a book of animals at 18 months. Her mother drilled her, and then they would take the book around to show how clever their daughter was.

I'd feel quite bad since my son was the same age and wasn't talking much, let alone identifying animals. The constant showing off and comparisons by my in-laws led to us taking him to a speech pathologist and to his pediatrician for an eval, to make sure he had no delays (he doesn't have any).

The other day, my wife realized that her niece (now over 2) couldn't identify the exact same animals, when they were in a different book, or using plastic models. She had learned the book, but didn't understand the concepts.

I've learned my lesson about comparing milestones. I suppose a professional may be able to do meaningful comparisons, but the average parent or grandparent cannot.

Re: The Montessori Mafia

#150
post #138
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've researched this for my children, and there seemed to be significant differences. The amount of superstition in the Steiner teachings put me off big time ("Beware of right angles and potatoes!"). Montessori makes far fewer wild assumptions.

I went to Steiner school, and it's true that the theory is essentially nothing-but-crazy. But the practice of it can be utterly fantastic, and at least where I went the theory was entirely unmentioned. In the final half hour of school we had a lesson on "where did the last 14 years of your education come from?" -- we apparently (for example) literally have seven bodies, but you would thankfully never have guessed it…

If there's a word for "deriving effective practice from insane theory," it's probably something like "to rudstein." Biodynamic farming uses esoteric geomancy techniques like burying a cow's horn filled with powdered quartz, and when used in vineyards yields some truly excellent wines.
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