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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#751

Post by scarface74 »

lwansbrough wrote: post #566
scarface74 wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling virtual items is not especially common due to the exposure it creates to fraud and abuse. How is that argument any different than the one Apple is making?

Apple doesn't just require you use their payment processor - which might in theory be acceptable - they also demand 30 cents on every dollar. Payment providers everywhere have shown that fraud and abuse can be mitigated to an acceptable level with transaction fees as low as half a cent on the dollar. So Apple forces you into an agreement to use a payment processor that is 30-60x more expensive than the competition si…

How much does Epic demand to buy pretend money to by things in Fortnite? Why do I have to give Epic money to buy useless virtual goods?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#752

Post by scarface74 »

manquer wrote: post #633
scarface74 wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now we are telling companies what they should make? We know that margins aren’t 64% - it’s right in their financial statements. The costs to run the Apple store should be included as a sunk platform cost of the phone just like OSX. The cost to run the store is marginal. The cost to serve up an additional developer app, to review an additional app, and to let someone buy one, is an insignificant fraction. Would App…

> most of it is coming from the tokens and loot boxes bought by whales. Apple's money is coming from where exactly ? At $1000+ price, in gaming terminology that is either "whales" or users who cannot afford it but are exploited/addicted to the "product". There are perfectly equivalent android phones for less than half that price. Ultimately apple and epic are lifestyle companies, you don't "need" either of them sure,…

Apple's money is coming from where exactly ? At $1000+ price, in gaming terminology that is either "whales" or users who cannot afford it but are exploited/addicted to the "product".

So people are addicted to iPhones? Apple sells a $399 phone that is faster than any Android phone at any price.

Apple will not give any volume discounts. They can get away with it because of their control over the market.

Rumors are that they did in fact negotiate with Amazon, Netflix, and Hulu. They actually offered something of value.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#753

Post by manquer »

scarface74 wrote: post #752
manquer wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of it is coming from the tokens and loot boxes bought by whales. Apple's money is coming from where exactly ? At $1000+ price, in gaming terminology that is either "whales" or users who cannot afford it but are exploited/addicted to the "product". There are perfectly equivalent android phones for less than half that price. Ultimately apple and epic are lifestyle companies, you don't "need" either of them sure,…

Apple's money is coming from where exactly ? At $1000+ price, in gaming terminology that is either "whales" or users who cannot afford it but are exploited/addicted to the "product". So people are addicted to iPhones? Apple sells a $399 phone that is faster than any Android phone at any price. Apple will not give any volume discounts. They can get away with it because of their control over the market. Rumors are that…

Of course they are addicted to apple brand. People accessor-ize apple products. A lot of people buy apple because it is aspirational, same reason people buy skins in games and many times neither can really afford to spend that kind of money.

> Apple sells a $399 phone that is faster than any Android phone at any price.

Google Pixel 3A is similarly priced product , it has higher resolution(2220x1080 / 1337x750) better camera (12.2+8 / 12+7), lighter(147g / 148g), larger(5.6inch/4.7inch), larger battery, better processor, a headphone jack (like the jack or not, not having it means you need airpods headset easily another $150 compared to $20-30 I can spend on a wired headset.

And this is 2020 SE which Apple will typically for sell for next three years . Other competitors would have two more upgrades stretching the gap a lot more by 2022 when Apple will sell 2020 SE at the same price.

You can perhaps argue that form factor, processor or battery is actually better in Apple, but any objective reasonable metric Apple SE is not significantly better than similar android phones.

Apple is forced to deal with streaming companies, because they are not a large enough player, with big enough catalogue to dictate terms. Apple needs to license content from the same studios for themselves too, they screw over hulu, Apple TV is going to be screwed right back.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#754

Post by nodamage »

sjy wrote: post #589
nouveaux wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we really call Epic Games and Fortnite a small business?

No. My point is not that they are a small business, it’s that they are smaller than Apple and selling into a different market. Thus it does not “follow,” from the proposition that Apple is a monopolist, that Epic is also a monopolist.

I think you've missed the point here. Neither Apple nor Epic have enough market share in their primary market (smartphones/games) to be considered monopolists.

So instead, people move the goalposts to an aftermarket of the product (iOS apps) and claim that Apple has a monopoly over that market instead. But every company has a natural monopoly over their own products, and by the very same logic you could claim Epic has a monopoly over the aftermarket of their product (Fortnite skins).

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#755

Post by Gibbon1 »

simonh wrote: post #707
Gibbon1 wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we just tell apple they can do what they want as long as their devices don't connect to the public cellular networks.

Ive explained why Apple's system is their product and therefore their property, and Ive explained why ISPs are a different case. I'm not seeing any attempt at all to seriously, coherently provide a credible counter argument that makes any actual sense.

Radio stations used to sell cheep AM radios that were only tuned to their station and the government outlawed them.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#756

Post by pests »

Despegar wrote: post #500
three_seagrass wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreeing to a TOS is a standard for open markets. Splitting hairs over a TOS existing is ignoring the fact that Epic doesn't allow third parties to sell in their market (with or without a TOS).

When you accept Apple's developer agreement, you're agreeing to a contract. It absolutely isn't an "open market" for any definition of what that means. Apple has exclusive control of their IP and they are offering a way for you to license it on their terms.

Regardless of what term you use it's a fact of reality that right now no one else but Epic can put content on the Epic Store which is not true of Apple and the App Store.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#757

Post by stale2002 »

ghostwriter wrote: post #741
danShumway wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this point it just looks as a random wish that Apple implements your ideas. Sorry, no one is obliged to implement your wishes as you see them fit. You don't understand what I'm saying, and I don't know how to say it any more clearly. I'm not asking Apple to do anything . I want to be able to do things myself without Apple using the government to attack my business. This is worse than the Right to Repair debates…

> I want to be able to do things myself without Apple using the government to attack my business. Here, how exactly does it attack your business? Is your business built around Apple ecosystem? Have you accepted their terms and conditions? there's no way to enter into any relations with Apple without accepting their terms of the services. Have you got warrants coming from Apple lawyers? > Just let people compete, that…

> You are free to compete, not on their platform at their cost though.

No he is not. Because Apple will make a call to the people with guns (The government) Who will prevent them from doing so.

Why do you support government regulations forcing people to not do these things?

> It's either open standards or inter-operability with a proprietory standard. If you don't want to get sued

Why should Apple have these rights? Why should. the government be protecting them?

He was arguing that we should get rid of Apple's ability to sue people for these things.

Lets get rid of the regulations that allow Apple to sue anyone for any of this.

Why do you support big government regulation, that allows apple to use threats of legal violence against people?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#758

Post by humaniania »

cromwellian wrote: post #690
humaniania wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are you to tell Apple how to set their prices? Apple is an American company and we have free markets here. Price controls on luxury goods are completely against free market capitalism. If you don't like it, don't buy an iPhone. Good luck finding a better smart phone experience.

Well, I'm a customer and I can bitch and moan about their behavior all I want. How else will they improve if their customers don't have any complaints? But again, we see the "love it or leave it" attitude. As in, you have no right to criticize the cherished totem that I have invested a huge portion of my self into.

You work for Google and have the nerve to call a diatribe about Apple's profit margins a legitimate complaint? Cool. Well Google should charge less for advertising because they make too much money off ad clicks!

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#759

Post by NorwegianDude »

valuearb wrote: post #643
NorwegianDude wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple is making us pay 30% so we're going to charge you 30% more You would have to charge $142.86 for something you otherwise could sell for $100 if it wasn't for Apple taking a 30 % cut. So ~43 % more, not 30 % more. Apple sure is milking iOS users for alot of money, without users knowing.

Apple is adding a lot of value for developers and customers by providing a secure low friction app sales and discovery system.

No, they are not. Epic and a lot of others would just go without Apple App Store if they could. They don't need discovery. They are adding value, but that value is for themselves, in form of a 30 % cut. That's not good for consumers or developers.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#760

Post by NorwegianDude »

cromwellian wrote: post #685
cynix wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're free to charge whatever you want on your own website. You just can't mention that fact in your iOS app.

> You just can't mention that fact in your iOS app. And you don't think that is anti-competitive? Apple is free to promote their own services on their platform that compete with others, require them to pay a 30% tax that their own competing service does, and the only escape hatch they give you is "you can use the web, but you can't tell your users" Am I taking crazy pills, or do other people think this is absurd. The…

Of course it is absurd. But a lot of people have no idea what this is even all about.

A large part of the internet is screaming "The evil Epic brought this upon themselves, if they don't want to pay 30 %, then don't use iOS!"

Apple increases costs for users, just because they bought an iOS device. Thats definetly not good for consumers.

But what are developers going to do about it? For some developers, over 2/3 of their customers are on a iOS device, so just not using the App Store is not a realistic option. Apple has also made sure that the App Store is the only possible way.

So, it's way to big to ignore, and there is definetly no competition. Clearly something has to happen. I would also love to be able to use a decent browser like Firefox or Chrome on iOS(not the current webkit crap apple forces mozilla and Google to use).

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