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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#441

Post by Terretta »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #432
pwthornton wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't cost $450 to make an iPhone. That's insane. It may cost that in parts, but there are many, many highly paid engineers, designers, product managers, etc. who worked on those products. Those people's salaries must be accounted for somehow. This is something that a commenter on Hacker News should understand! All of those dumb cost breakdowns for what it "costs" to make iPhones or whatever always miss the fact…

The $450 is the marginal cost of an iPhone. That's typically the normal number cited for the "manufacturing cost" of a product, regardless of the level of R&D and marketing that goes into it.

GP claimed iOS was "free". Can't be both free, and the phone only costs its parts.

GP also said to cover cost of app store in the phone, despite only costing its parts.

I consider iOS to be one of the iPhone's parts. I don't understand why machinery engineered from metal is so different from that engineered from bits, that I must consider them two products instead of one. Metal, glass, silicon, bits: one PDA appliance.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#442

Post by NorwegianDude »

WWLink wrote: post #367
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

I agree with the sunk cost - besides, who is the customer and who is the product here? The customer is supposed to be the one who bought the phone and is using the OS in their best interest. Right? This whole thing feels all wrong. Both Apple for "gatekeeping OUR customers" and Epic for "Apple's stealing OUR money" (or "Apple is making us pay 30% so we're going to charge you 30% more") Besides, it's not as if the App…

>Apple is making us pay 30% so we're going to charge you 30% more

You would have to charge $142.86 for something you otherwise could sell for $100 if it wasn't for Apple taking a 30 % cut. So ~43 % more, not 30 % more. Apple sure is milking iOS users for alot of money, without users knowing.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#443

Post by hamandcheese »

siruncledrew wrote: post #428
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

Epic is not putting up some legal crusade for the “little guy” competitors. Epic is putting up a fight for Epic. It all comes down to money. If Epic was running their own platform, and 3rd parties didn’t want to abide by their rules, then Epic would give those 3rd parties the finger and tell them to F-off the same as Apple. Each is trying to grab as much profit as they can while running into the issue of other hands…

> If Epic was running their own platform, and 3rd parties didn’t want to abide by their rules, then Epic would give those 3rd parties the finger and tell them to F-off the same as Apple.

What exactly is your point here? If was in Apple's position, they would protect their interests exactly as Apple is. Thats why we need to regulate companies who are in Apple's position! The fact that its greed vs. greed is immaterial.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#444

Post by pests »

misnome wrote: post #436
naikrovek wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite. 3rd party artists can't create anything that can be used inside Fortnite, neither inside the v-bucks store nor outside of it. There's no 3rd party "market" at all. Apple has a market where third parties can market their apps. Apple requires a cut of all purchases made through that store, which alone is not monopolistic. Apple also requires that you sell your iOS…

Ah, but that's outside of Fortnite. Inside Fortnite they have a monopoly on selling items, right?

The core point your parent was trying to make is that Fortnite is not an open market. No one but Epic provides goods to the Epic store. Apple allowing third party developers is the distinction being made.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#445

Post by IncRnd »

pwthornton wrote: post #419
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

It doesn't cost $450 to make an iPhone. That's insane. It may cost that in parts, but there are many, many highly paid engineers, designers, product managers, etc. who worked on those products. Those people's salaries must be accounted for somehow. This is something that a commenter on Hacker News should understand! All of those dumb cost breakdowns for what it "costs" to make iPhones or whatever always miss the fact…

Apple has more products than an iPhone. In business you do not include the costs in that manner. Even without an iPhone, those costs exist and would be paid.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#446

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

>This is not a console you play to entertain yourself, or even a PC for work: it is the foundation of modern life

OMFG. Is it just because I'm 56? Is it just because I've spent my entire adult life connected to the internet (barring a few early years where it was just Bitnet)? Is it because I helped start the biggest e-commerce company in the anglo/eurosphere? Is it that I spend all day in front of screens, connected to the entire goddam planet? Is it that I'm a grumpy old curmudgeon ?

The idea that the iPhone (or any network-connected portabl computing device) is the center of modern life just needs to die already.

If this pandemic didn't provide it already, just these few things are far more "central to modern life" than your goddam smartphone:

   * a stable, diverse healthy food supply
   * trash pickup
   * a functioning, non-overloaded, sensibly priced and paid for healthcare system
   * a mail/package distribution system
   * fuel stations for your vehicle, if you have one
   * investigative, non-suck-up journalism
   * electricity (to charge your smartphone, naturally)
I could go on.

Your smartphone is not the center of your life. You have a variety of options for contemporary communication, and the fact that a bunch of you have decided that the most important one is the one that fits in your pocket and works anywhere there's a cell tower within range doesn't change the fact that it's the icing on top of the cake that is the rest of your life. It is totally amazing to be able to do what you can do with a contemporary smartphone, and no doubt they will get even more amazing.

But they are NOT the center of modern life, they are the black mirror-becoming-black hole sucking so many other components of human existence into their mundane, pedestrian and constrained vision of life.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#447

Post by ghostwriter »

danShumway wrote: post #414
ghostwriter wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We want a few more families to move into your house. We don't like the fact that you have a complete control over your home, and I think you're just frightened that other families could run your house better than you. And by the way, you've never invited us for a party, so it is extremely rude and unfair, and just shows your monopolistic stance, so we expect that other families will open the doors for anyone who need…

And if there were only two livable houses in the entire world, then that would be a completely reasonable position for someone to take. Apple is one half of a duopoly. People keep on bringing up these 'gotcha' arguments about, "how would you feel if Walmart was forced to stock everybody's stuff?" And that ignores the fact that it would be a serious problem if there were only two supermarkets that I could buy from. I…

> And if there were only two livable houses in the entire world, then that would be a completely reasonable position for someone to take.

There are more than two platforms out there. But even if there weren't, the fact that there's only N things in the world doesn't make your random claim on someone else's property any more valid. App Store is Apple's property. Build your own and host whoever you want there, but firstly you have to convince others that it is more valuable than the popular alternative. And if you fail to do that, it's not necessarily because the alternative is a monopoly, it may be and more likely is because your product is inferior.

> And that ignores the fact that it would be a serious problem if there were only two supermarkets that I could buy from.

Do you know the reason why it never happens though?

Your examples from the past just demonstrate that no monopoly exists without a government acting as a gatekeeper, like it was in the case of Bell and Union Pacific, and even then there was a place for successful competitors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Railway_(U.S.)

> So be careful about making analogies to the physical world when you're supporting Apple, because people might just take them at face value.

likewise, learn what you are advocating for, because mere quantity of stuff out there is never a justification for taking it over (and neither is your convenience), which my analogy was all about.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#448

Post by m463 »

cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

The app store should be free as a complement to hardware sales.

"A complement is a product that you usually buy together with another product. Gas and cars are complements. Computer hardware is a classic complement of computer operating systems. And babysitters are a complement of dinner at fine restaurants. In a small town, when the local five star restaurant has a two-for-one Valentine’s day special, the local babysitters double their rates. (Actually, the nine-year-olds get roped into early service.)

All else being equal, demand for a product increases when the prices of its complements decrease."

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/

also, people should be speaking of monopsony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#449

Post by colinmhayes »

siruncledrew wrote: post #428
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

Epic is not putting up some legal crusade for the “little guy” competitors. Epic is putting up a fight for Epic. It all comes down to money. If Epic was running their own platform, and 3rd parties didn’t want to abide by their rules, then Epic would give those 3rd parties the finger and tell them to F-off the same as Apple. Each is trying to grab as much profit as they can while running into the issue of other hands…

You're right, but you're not. Yes, Epic is trying to make money. But if Epic is allowed to open their own store it would be very good for small developers. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#450

Post by m463 »

misnome wrote: post #384
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

> Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite. The problem is that as soon as you allow narrowing your definition of words to whatever supports your argument, then they become meaningless.

wouldn't that be a monopsony (only one buyer of your goods)
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