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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

stratechery.com

741–750 of 781 posts

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is the reason why web experiences on iOS suck. They deliberately lag on web standards so that their browser experience is inferior to native apps. None of this accidental. I've never mentioned web experience on iOS, let's not add words into my replies for the convenience of your argument. Everyone is free to choose any other platform with a better web experience and to build on top of it, with all open standa…

> At this point it just looks as a random wish that Apple implements your ideas. Sorry, no one is obliged to implement your wishes as you see them fit. You don't understand what I'm saying, and I don't know how to say it any more clearly. I'm not asking Apple to do anything . I want to be able to do things myself without Apple using the government to attack my business. This is worse than the Right to Repair debates…

> I want to be able to do things myself without Apple using the government to attack my business.

Here, how exactly does it attack your business? Is your business built around Apple ecosystem? Have you accepted their terms and conditions? there's no way to enter into any relations with Apple without accepting their terms of the services. Have you got warrants coming from Apple lawyers?

> Just let people compete, that's all I'm asking

You are free to compete, not on their platform at their cost though. For the same reason why you would refuse to give me access to your business (whatever it does) to compete with you. You cannot just freely re-interpret the definition of the market so that it fits your narrative. Market is never a private entity's platform.

> I don't know if this is on purpose or not, but I just listed a few of the ways that Apple can interfere with Open standards, including suing competitors that use adversarial operability to get around network effects in an entrenched market.

It's either open standards or inter-operability with a proprietory standard. If you don't want to get sued, either buy the license or build your own solution that doesn't require interop. There's hundreds of companies who do that regularly, they pay their fees and make money along the way. There are also businesses who do not interact with Apple in any shape or form yet are able to build their mobile solutions. Because Mobile is not "Applications for either Android or iOS", you can believe this but that doesn't make it anyhow true.

> Those are the only two viable mobile platforms that exist right now.

There was a time when they didn't exist at all, the fact that there are two now doesn't change anything. Again, all your points are about convenience to you, not about inability to create a new platform. And by the way, define "viable".

> people accuse us of trying to force Apple to fix our phones for free when in reality we just want to stop Apple from suing everyone who imports a 3rd-party battery.

are you elected to represent all of those who comment positively on that topic? I can play this game too, and "we" who oppose it neither do want any third-party battery to be presented as a genuine replacement for the original ones nor desire to have a device that is easily disassembled by third-parties. Had we wanted these features, we'd go and buy any noname Android phone.

> But don't pretend the web is an escape hatch when its mobile support depends entirely on the two companies

You have to prove that, so far it's an unsubstantiated claim. Another one, because you feel like it. The majority of people use these two platofrms not because there are no alternatives, but because it doesn't worth the effort to switch to anything else. The existing solutions already are convenient enough. Notice the difference. You may disagree with this, but again, it's just your wishes.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this point it just looks as a random wish that Apple implements your ideas. Sorry, no one is obliged to implement your wishes as you see them fit. You don't understand what I'm saying, and I don't know how to say it any more clearly. I'm not asking Apple to do anything . I want to be able to do things myself without Apple using the government to attack my business. This is worse than the Right to Repair debates…

> I want to be able to do things myself without Apple using the government to attack my business. Here, how exactly does it attack your business? Is your business built around Apple ecosystem? Have you accepted their terms and conditions? there's no way to enter into any relations with Apple without accepting their terms of the services. Have you got warrants coming from Apple lawyers? > Just let people compete, that…

> you would refuse to give me access to your business

You will always be free to build 3rd-party products that work with and wrap around my products. I will never use the law as a cudgel to stop you from fairly competing with me. Users have an inherent right to control the devices that they own.

> You are free to compete, not on their platform at their cost though

Not asking to compete on their platform. I want to be able to compete on my platform, and I don't want Apple to tell me whether or not I'm allowed to build a platform that's compatible with iOS apps.

> If you don't want to get sued, either buy the license or build your own solution that doesn't require interop.

Why? Why can the government decide what I'm allowed to build? If I can build a solution by myself without a contract that interops with Apple's platforms, why should the government tell me I'm not allowed to do that? If I can build a device that runs iOS, why should the government say that I'm not allowed to do that?

What right does the government have to stop me from building and distributing products that solve my problems?

> [...]

This is ridiculous.

If you support regulation, then fine. Go argue about what the regulations are.

If you don't support regulation, then fine. Let's get rid of artificial government monopolies that allow companies to decide what is and isn't legal. Copyright is not a natural right.

You're taking a great many words to say that you selectively oppose regulation only when it's directed towards the protection of the consumer. If that's your position, then fine, but I'm not going to debate it, I don't think that position is logically coherent enough to debate.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#743

>This is not a console you play to entertain yourself, or even a PC for work: it is the foundation of modern life OMFG. Is it just because I'm 56? Is it just because I've spent my entire adult life connected to the internet (barring a few early years where it was just Bitnet)? Is it because I helped start the biggest e-commerce company in the anglo/eurosphere? Is it that I spend all day in front of screens, connected…

It is honestly the center of modern life to many young people. Half the things you mention are oblivious to the younger population. They don't have a vehicle, don't use physical mail (paper letters), and couldn't care less about journalism. Consider somebody trying to get a job in modern society. The phone is needed to apply. The phone is needed to do the interview. The phone is needed to take a picture of your id an…

>Consider somebody trying to get a job in modern society. The phone is needed to apply. The phone is needed to do the interview. The phone is needed to take a picture of your id and receive the contract when you're hired.

That makes it a very useful tool in modern life. Not the center of modern life.

>They don't have a vehicle

Fuel for the bus or subway, then.

>don't use physical mail (paper letters)

and they don't vote? or participate in the census?

>couldn't care less about journalism.

doesn't match the young people I know.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xbox has a monpoly on their game store. Sony has a monpoloy on their game store. Come on - is this argument going to be used for all these too? Walmart has a monopoly on what sells in Walmart.

Depends on what you define as their game store. I can purchase a game that is playable on the xbox from anywhere that sells a copy. One of these places is the digital store that comes with the xbox. But I can also go to cd-keys, or amazon and buy a copy there that will still work on an xbox.

For now.

Look at the PS5: the ability to put a disk in is a legacy that's clearly going away by Sony making it an option you'll have to pay extra for. The entry level model is digital only, for better or worse.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#745
post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xbox has a monpoly on their game store. Sony has a monpoloy on their game store. Come on - is this argument going to be used for all these too? Walmart has a monopoly on what sells in Walmart.

Once you decide to shop at wall-mart you can easily switch to other markets or buy items from other stores. not comparable at all. If there were basically only Wall-Mart and Target to buy stuff from, and you had to commit to one for 2-5 years every time, you bet they should be under heavy scrutiny. Sony and Microsoft are a better comparison, but different because 1) their consoles are huge loss leaders, phones are no…

But the irony is that loss leaders are a sign of market abuse / market power. That's the normal anti-trust claim - predatory pricing. If anything, Apple is charging a premium price for their experience.

Apple has become essential and trusted in part perhaps because it has exercised near iron control over almost all aspects of their platform.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xbox has a monpoly on their game store. Sony has a monpoloy on their game store. Come on - is this argument going to be used for all these too? Walmart has a monopoly on what sells in Walmart.

Depends on what you define as their game store. I can purchase a game that is playable on the xbox from anywhere that sells a copy. One of these places is the digital store that comes with the xbox. But I can also go to cd-keys, or amazon and buy a copy there that will still work on an xbox.

I don't think you realize the permissions game makers need to even sell a CD that works on xbox. If that CD is not signed off on by microsoft - total control -> it's not going to work in your console - period. And the irony - EVEN IF microsoft does not market / distribute or accept payment for the game (Apple does all of this) I can guarantee you Microsoft (and sony) get a cut.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#747
post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you call the Play Store? What do you call Android? Talk about false equivalence, you’ve just demonstrated that.

1.I have installed LineageOS which has 0 apps from Gogle 2. I have installed android apps from F_-droid/Samsung app store or even Vivo app store 3. I have directly installed apks which didn't appear on play store directly from the internet Where is my false equivalence? Pray tell me? Google makes it impossible for apps to run without play store but I've used 0 google apps on android for 1yr and lived easily with 0 is…

Dude, you don't need to buy an iphone, you don't need to by an xbox, you don't need to buy a playstation - if you do though you will be using their stores / they will be getting a cut.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, you don't like the single App store model for your phone. That's fine. However, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that your desire is that of a tiny minority. Due to Apple's extraordinary success and complete dominance of smartphone profits, I think it is safe to assume the vast majority of users love the App store model. They don't read Hacker News, they don't understand how computers work, and they…

Windows used to completely dominate the world. Americans, when polled, often say they like their own health insurance. None of this means it is a consumer desire, and none of this says consumers want only one way to pay for something and don't want side loading. For almost every case of something Apple doesn't have, you can make the same argument. So consumers don't want big screens right? Consumers don't want small…

Windows used to completely dominate the world.

And when it comes to PC operating systems, it still does even though according to you Apple has this magical ability to keep the masses ignorant and uninformed about alternatives.

Also, all of this is a complete SMOKESCREEN for the fact that Apple could easily introduce something like WebPayments, a driver model for payment providers, and reuse the same UI for Apple Pay to delegate to partners who are vetted.

Does any retailer have a method that allows consumers to avoid payments? Can I buy imaginary money from Epic from another payment provider and use within Fortnite?

Likewise, they already allow 'side loading' in the enterprise, so the question is, why can't they allow THOSE WHO WANT IT to flip a switch

You are perfectly allowed to buy an Android phone like 85% of the rest of the world.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single one of Apple’s competitors in the PC market were better capitalized in the 80s through 2005. Especially when Apple was almost bankrupt. The other companies were incompetent. They could have done the same thing. There was no lock in with Macs - the same Software was available for Windows and more. Have you ever thought that it wasn’t just about the hardware? Did Apple have a lock in on marketing that kept…

> They could have done the same thing. Nope, the MS-DOS and Windows market was too big by then to introduce a new incompatible system. Ask OS/2 how it worked out. > There was no lock in with Macs Sure there was. Firstly, many schools across the country had been convinced to by Macs through the educational discounts Apple gave, and school bureaucracies like all government bureaucracies move very slowly, so aren't goin…

So please tell us one law that the government passed in the last 30 years related to technology that was actually good for consumers.

After everything you have seen the US government do with regards to technology, you still want more government power? I haven’t seen anyone on HN that supports the DMCA, laws trying to make encryption illegal, etc.

My fight against government control is because I don’t trust the government. I can more easily leave a company than I can a government.

Why was Apple able to survive the consolidation behind MS DOS and Atari, Commodore, etc. weren’t? They all started around the same place.

Don’t blame Apple for other company’s failures.

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