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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

stratechery.com

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#521

Post by donor20 »

naikrovek wrote: post #427
misnome wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite. The problem is that as soon as you allow narrowing your definition of words to whatever supports your argument, then they become meaningless.

> Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite. 3rd party artists can't create anything that can be used inside Fortnite, neither inside the v-bucks store nor outside of it. There's no 3rd party "market" at all. Apple has a market where third parties can market their apps. Apple requires a cut of all purchases made through that store, which alone is not monopolistic. Apple also requires that you sell your iOS…

Xbox has a monpoly on their game store. Sony has a monpoloy on their game store.

Come on - is this argument going to be used for all these too? Walmart has a monopoly on what sells in Walmart.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#522

Post by kevingadd »

wrkronmiller wrote: post #278
nemothekid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume their costs are just, Credit Card Fees, Infrastructure Fees (Bandwidth, Storage), Reviewers Salary. Not sure this adds up to 30%. I think the real reason is that when the Apple store was started, they looked around at the current prices for "software distribution". Retail was like 70%, and other app stores; for example the Danger Hiptop / T-mobile Sidekick charged 60% for their apps store, and the carriers w…

Maintaining XCode, running iCloud app-facing services, building/maintaining SDKs, etc... Apple has to pay for these somehow. They can either get the money by charging more for each iPhone or they can get the money from the real end-users of these products: Developers.

The iOS App Store supposedly grosses around $50 billion USD per year. Let's say that they were to halve their cut from 30% to 15% (very close to what players like Epic are asking for) - cutting Apple's take from $15 billion USD to 7.5 billion USD.

What is Apple spending 7.5 billion USD on such that they'd have to raise the price of iPhones? They have multiple other revenue sources as well, like developer program fees. None of those cover their costs either? Are you suggesting they're selling phones at a loss?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#523

Post by rched »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #344
rched wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't I've been seeing this argument a lot and it makes the assumption that allowing alternative app stores has no impact on people who choose not to use them. I don't think this is true. An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to c…

> An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to choose between not using the app or giving your credit card information to the app developer you may not trust. But then this is competitive pressure for Apple to charge lower fees and allow apps to handle payments themselves, at which point the ap…

I have no desire to constrain user choice. I do think there is value to users in putting some constraints on app developers. If you can accomplish that without also constraining user choice then that is the ideal outcome in my mind.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#524

Post by projektfu »

notriddle wrote: post #488
projektfu wrote: post #426

I think it’s absurd that you can neither buy a kindle book from the iOS kindle app nor the Amazon app. How user unfriendly! And yet, Apple runs their own digitsl bookstore... since there’s no way to remove 30% revenue from apple’s own venture, they’re using a monopoly position to monopolize another market. Oh, but Apple isn’t a monopoly because there’s Android. Why did we think Microsoft was a monopoly? You could alw…

Windows still has 87% market share on desktop and laptop web browsing statistics. It was higher at the time that trial took place, and cell phone web browsing wasn't as popular back then. iOS still has less than half of the smartphone market. p.s. Right to Repair laws ought to make it illegal for Apple to prevent users from installing third-party software on the iPhone. This talk of them being some sort of "monopoly"…

These arguments feel empty to me. There is only one source of software for the iPhone: Apple. The android ecosystem has no utility to the iPhone user. There is an Apple tax on every piece of software and every digital purchase on the platform. I don’t see where the competition is.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#525

Post by ghostwriter »

enragedcacti wrote: post #429
ghostwriter wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Apple ecosystem. People want to get onto App Store because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they subscribe voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for the service under the rules that are mentioned prior the transaction takes place.

By omitting details and framing each transaction as an isolated incident, you can make almost any monopoly or anti-consumer practice sound like just another business. Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Carnegie Steel. People want to use their steel because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they purchase it voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for…

so, where's the flaw? The fact that somebody sometime ago named another corporation a monopoly by the same ridiculous criterion as "too big" and discharged it, doesn't make it anyhow right. Was there gatekeeping from the government for new players to enter the same market? Any quotas or tariffs by chance?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#526

Post by sujinge9 »

zem wrote: post #482
askafriend wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call a spade a spade. Not even the mafia extorted businesses for 30%. What do you call Steam, Xbox, Nintendo, Best Buy, Game Stop, Playstation, Microsoft...

rent seekers. why, what do you call them?

Platforms.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#527

Post by scarface74 »

dangoor wrote: post #262
giantrobot wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm super amused by people bemoaning Apple's cut of sales on the App Store. I remember mobile software before the App Store. Buying software for a Palm or PocketPC device was a fucking shit show. There were multiple competing stores and sometimes even the developer's own site. The prices were ridiculous, partly because everyone had to implement their own payment and distribution systems. If the software didn't work o…

2020 is very different from 2008. Palm and PocketPC devices were "organizers" and not primary computing devices (as smartphones are today, for some users), so there was a lot less at stake back then. Additionally, companies like Stripe have made integrating payments _way_ easier than it was back then. Hosting downloads is not difficult either. As noted in the Stratechery article, developers not only give up 30%, but…

PocketPC apps were written using MFC and a subset of C# - the same APIs used for Windows. They were very much capable of general purpose apps.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#528

Post by notriddle »

projektfu wrote: post #524
notriddle wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows still has 87% market share on desktop and laptop web browsing statistics. It was higher at the time that trial took place, and cell phone web browsing wasn't as popular back then. iOS still has less than half of the smartphone market. p.s. Right to Repair laws ought to make it illegal for Apple to prevent users from installing third-party software on the iPhone. This talk of them being some sort of "monopoly"…

These arguments feel empty to me. There is only one source of software for the iPhone: Apple. The android ecosystem has no utility to the iPhone user. There is an Apple tax on every piece of software and every digital purchase on the platform. I don’t see where the competition is.

You didn't have to buy an iPhone.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#529

Post by scarface74 »

kevingadd wrote: post #504
scarface74 wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I buy and sell virtual items in Fortnite without giving Epic a cut?

Selling virtual items is not especially common due to the exposure it creates to fraud and abuse. Fortnite doesn't allow selling or trading - games that do like Team Fortress 2 and Counter-strike Go are home to lots of scammers who try to trick teens and other uninformed players into giving away their valuable loot :( Who are you going to buy from without giving Epic a cut? They're the only ones offering Fortnite ite…

Selling virtual items is not especially common due to the exposure it creates to fraud and abuse.

How is that argument any different than the one Apple is making?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#530

Post by sujinge9 »

ascagnel_ wrote: post #362
ahnick wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Play is also an anti-competitive monopoly as well. Google was a bit smarter about avoiding potential anti-trust though, because they at least give the illusion of choice with 3rd party app stores. There basically is not a competitive market for either app marketplace right now, so an accurate price can't be determined. Allow 3rd party marketplaces to be installed as easily as any other app and I'm certain prices will…

> Google was a bit smarter about avoiding potential anti-trust though, because they at least give the illusion of choice with 3rd party app stores. I'd argue the opposite -- one of Epic's allegations is that Google scuttled a deal Epic had reached with OnePlus to ship Epic's own Android app store.

The illusion of choice has nothing to do with what is the default choice.
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