Live data from Hacker News

Apple, Epic, and the App Store

stratechery.com

701–710 of 781 posts

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#701
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counter-productive, it aims at punishing successful where mere "bigness" is used as the proof of "unfair". We don't know how much cheaper Apple products could be if it hadn't have to spread costs of lobbying its interests in Washington DC across their device prices. > The threat of it seems to be having positive effects already, looking at the front page of HN it depends on your reliance on that kind of services…

It’s true that we can’t know how much cheaper Apple products would be if the antitrust laws didn’t exist, and that some people (and not only shareholders) benefit from or prefer a less competitive market. But conversely, we don’t know how much worse things might be if there were no laws to keep “bigness” in check. I am convinced by the history of antitrust that competition regulators do more good than harm.

> But conversely, we don’t know how much worse things might be if there were no laws to keep “bigness” in check.

We know it from history for sure, that "bigness" of an economic player is not a problem. There was no anti-trust legislation prior 1913, and Standard Oil was lowering prices for their oil and kerosine every year in order to compete with emerging oil wells developers, which kept popping up dispite Standard's dominance. [1] Customers, large and small, were benefiting along the way. But notice how governments-coordinated OPEC influences the prices and ability to enter the market:

[1] https://www.winton.com/longer-view/price-history-oil

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#702
post #673
post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

XCode, the iOS software libraries and tools are all Apple products and are used to develop software for iOS. By requiring that Apple allow developers to distribute software outside the App Store with no revenue for Apple, you are requiring Apple to give away their products for free. On what basis do you or anyone else have that right? Apple has a monopoly on how those products are sold and licensed because they are A…

How would you feel if your ISPs started wanting a cut of all money you made via the internet? After all, it's their house so their rules... Apple have carved out a significant market share of mobile users. They've locked down the OS so you can't install your own apps on it and they've crippled the browser so you can't build nice web apps. For businesses like Netflix, Spotify and Epic who's userbases arguably transcen…

I don't expect to use my ISP's infrastructure for free. However most of that infrastructure was built using tax payer's money, on tax payer's land with special privileges granted by the government, and special tax incentives for improvements. In return we, the people, demand certain concessions and rules to compensate us. I'm actually in the UK, but the situation on this here and in the US are different in many details but in broad strokes are equivalent.

The iOS operating system, developer tools, platform libraries and the App Store and distribution system are all Apple products built by them on their own dime and at their own commercial risk. On what basis do you get to dictate to them what features they must or must not develop, what services they must be coerced to provide and what contractual relationships they are required to enter into? There's just no basis for that.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Impossible. There's a difference. If I name you the companies that release WebGL games I would state impossible? Let's not get that low in this discussion. > There are no phones on the market where the web is a comparable platform to native mobile apps. Comparable based on what criteria? Oftentimes I wish companies stop bother me with their "bug fixes and performance improvements" every other day and provide a slee…

> because their platform doesn't suck that much Apple is the reason why web experiences on iOS suck. They deliberately lag on web standards so that their browser experience is inferior to native apps. None of this accidental. And no, it's not just inconvenience. There are things on iOS that are literally impossible to do in WebGL. Reliable, persistent offline storage on iOS is impossible to do from a web app. Reliabl…

> Apple is the reason why web experiences on iOS suck. They deliberately lag on web standards so that their browser experience is inferior to native apps. None of this accidental.

I've never mentioned web experience on iOS, let's not add words into my replies for the convenience of your argument. Everyone is free to choose any other platform with a better web experience and to build on top of it, with all open standards and free licenses in mind. Apple won't be able to interfere.

> Imagine a world where I could build a phone that was compatible with every iOS app and Android app, where users didn't have to choose in advance which ecosystem they wanted to be a part of.

Build Linux phone instead and make it compatible with Android. Or a Windows-compatible phone on ReactOS. Why are you so fixated on Apple and iOS? At this point it just looks as a random wish that Apple implements your ideas. Sorry, no one is obliged to implement your wishes as you see them fit.

> Give people a real free market, and then we'll find out whether or not in the absence of regulations they can compete.

Just read how commerce existed prior 1913.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#704

It's a common meme that "With a free service you're not the customer, you're the product." Well, you may be Apple's customer at the beginning when you pay for the phone, but immediately afterward you become their product. You're being sold for the 30% tax. And to enforce that tax Apple maintains ultimate control over the hardware you supposedly bought, blocking you from doing things that would threaten Apple's revenu…

> "...immediately afterward you become their product. You're being sold for the 30% tax." I don't understand the argument you're attempting. Apple doesn't sell my info "for the 30% tax." In fact, they charge app developers that 30% and then keep my data away from those same developers.

Developers then asks users 30% more so in the end users pay it. It's the same with increasing government taxes - at the end of the day, the end user ends up paying those. :)

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#705
post #702
post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you feel if your ISPs started wanting a cut of all money you made via the internet? After all, it's their house so their rules... Apple have carved out a significant market share of mobile users. They've locked down the OS so you can't install your own apps on it and they've crippled the browser so you can't build nice web apps. For businesses like Netflix, Spotify and Epic who's userbases arguably transcen…

I don't expect to use my ISP's infrastructure for free. However most of that infrastructure was built using tax payer's money, on tax payer's land with special privileges granted by the government, and special tax incentives for improvements. In return we, the people, demand certain concessions and rules to compensate us. I'm actually in the UK, but the situation on this here and in the US are different in many detai…

Maybe we just tell apple they can do what they want as long as their devices don't connect to the public cellular networks.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#706
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Play charges 30% as well, it seems to be the market price. If that is exorbitant, what SHOULD the price be?

Play is also an anti-competitive monopoly as well. Google was a bit smarter about avoiding potential anti-trust though, because they at least give the illusion of choice with 3rd party app stores. There basically is not a competitive market for either app marketplace right now, so an accurate price can't be determined. Allow 3rd party marketplaces to be installed as easily as any other app and I'm certain prices will…

The choice is important. About 20% of apps on my Android phone come from F-Droid marketplace distributing free software and some of them are not distributed via Play store at all. And then there are Amazon App Store, Galaxy Store etc. (device-manufacturer stores) https://fossbytes.com/10-google-play-store-alternatives/

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#707
post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't expect to use my ISP's infrastructure for free. However most of that infrastructure was built using tax payer's money, on tax payer's land with special privileges granted by the government, and special tax incentives for improvements. In return we, the people, demand certain concessions and rules to compensate us. I'm actually in the UK, but the situation on this here and in the US are different in many detai…

Maybe we just tell apple they can do what they want as long as their devices don't connect to the public cellular networks.

Ive explained why Apple's system is their product and therefore their property, and Ive explained why ISPs are a different case. I'm not seeing any attempt at all to seriously, coherently provide a credible counter argument that makes any actual sense.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#708
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part of that argument I have trouble with is the “until all oven manufacturer were into the game” part. Do you have an example where an entire class of computer hardware became impossible to buy without firmware restrictions? This alarm bell has been sounded as “The War on General Purpose Computing” for over a decade for different pieces of hardware (laptops, desktops, routers, phones, etc.) but it still hasn’t r…

Game consoles, right? Back in the day things like the Commodore were often sold as game systems and computers (the NES wasn’t but you could still run unlicensed software). Nowadays, good luck running something on your PS4/Switch that the company didn’t approve (unless you have a hackable switch I guess, but that’s extremely fiddly).

In my opinion there is an important difference between purpose-built entertainment devices like consoles where sometimes HW cost is donated by the manufacturer and a multi-functional generic computer like laptop/desktop and partly smartphone. I care less about locked PS4 ecosystem than smartphonrs and computers.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xbox has a monpoly on their game store. Sony has a monpoloy on their game store. Come on - is this argument going to be used for all these too? Walmart has a monopoly on what sells in Walmart.

Depends on what you define as their game store. I can purchase a game that is playable on the xbox from anywhere that sells a copy. One of these places is the digital store that comes with the xbox. But I can also go to cd-keys, or amazon and buy a copy there that will still work on an xbox.

Wait, what? It doesn't matter where you buy an XBox game, Microsoft is getting their cut as platform holder no matter if digital or retail.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#710
post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers being paid to make games sounds great. Why is Epic a bad guy for paying developers?

Because making content exclusive to a single platform is not adding value - it is removing value from other platforms, and as such is a net negative move.

It's not though. There is nothing inherently negative having to use EGS compared to any other game hub. There is absolutely nothing negative about giving developers more money to make more and/or better games. It's a net negative to take 30% from developers doing the actual work.
Post reply on HN