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Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

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Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#51

Post by moltar »

fireattack wrote: post #22
petre wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18% price increase during a pandemic? Wow. They have it in Hungary too, but it's 8% as far as I can remember, not 18%. But we didn't mind as in Budapest the service and the food was almost always excellent, even in a bar that served mainly cocktails but had some easy dishes so that the customer doesn't leave the place if they're hungry. I don't like service tax. If you don't like the service you have no other option…

It's not 18% price increase though. People normally already pay tips just not a fixed 18%.

People normally pay tips for a good service. Making tips mandatory provides no incentive to provide a quality service. If the service quality drops - customers will go elsewhere.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#52

Post by tptacek »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #46
tptacek wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, servers in the US do not make $3/hr; they're required to make minimum wage and have a starting backstop wage (that's the $3 you hear about), and make as much more than minimum as their tips allow. Of course, the US minimum wage is much too low to live on in most urban areas, so the minimum wage part is cold comfort. But servers in $$/$$$/$$$$ restaurants make substantially more than minimum wage in tips. By OpenT…

Yes I’ve heard this argument before as well and understand that’s why tipping is still pervasive however most restaurants aren’t $$$+ meaning most service workers don’t earn this amount and it still requires customers to pay more at their own “choosing” for the staff to have a liveable income. I was once chased out of a restaurant in New York and forced to tip 10% after they got both our orders wrong, what they did e…

Tipping isn't legally required, so this story doesn't make much sense.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#53

Post by moltar »

dwohnitmok wrote: post #25
tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15-20% has been the norm for my whole adult life, and the upper range (1) doesn't often materially change the price of a meal and (2) simplifies the math. Use whatever system you want, though; the point is: you are not actually on the hook to evaluate the server's performance. Think of it as tipping the institution of table service.

Oh interesting! My impression was that it was 10-15% about two decades ago and has now risen to 15-20% with most people I know tending closer to the 20% edge. Maybe it's simply that my social circles have become more generous tippers.

It’s because wages haven’t been catching up with inflation for decades also. Not just food service, pretty much in every sector, maybe with the exception of tech.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#54

Post by LammyL »

moltar wrote: post #51
fireattack wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 18% price increase though. People normally already pay tips just not a fixed 18%.

People normally pay tips for a good service. Making tips mandatory provides no incentive to provide a quality service. If the service quality drops - customers will go elsewhere.

Every other service business that isn’t a restaurant doesn’t have tips and they seem to be doing fine. What is it with restaurants that makes workers only provide good service because of money? Do food service workers not have any intrinsic motivation to do a good job?

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#55

Post by simonbarker87 »

tptacek wrote: post #52
simonbarker87 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I’ve heard this argument before as well and understand that’s why tipping is still pervasive however most restaurants aren’t $$$+ meaning most service workers don’t earn this amount and it still requires customers to pay more at their own “choosing” for the staff to have a liveable income. I was once chased out of a restaurant in New York and forced to tip 10% after they got both our orders wrong, what they did e…

Tipping isn't legally required, so this story doesn't make much sense.

Well it doesn’t make the story less true, it just means the waiter lied to two tourists and used the threat of police to get what he wanted. Further evidence that US tipping culture should be abolished.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#56

Post by fireattack »

moltar wrote: post #51
fireattack wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 18% price increase though. People normally already pay tips just not a fixed 18%.

People normally pay tips for a good service. Making tips mandatory provides no incentive to provide a quality service. If the service quality drops - customers will go elsewhere.

>People normally pay tips for a good service

People in the US and Canada (where this article is about) pay some tips unless they're pissed. I'm not saying this is ideal, just what it is according to my experience.

Again, the topic is about if this is a 18% price increase. My point is compared to the common practice pre-Covid, it's not. I have no argument about if it's going to decrease the service quality or not.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#57

Post by playeren »

moltar wrote: post #51
fireattack wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 18% price increase though. People normally already pay tips just not a fixed 18%.

People normally pay tips for a good service. Making tips mandatory provides no incentive to provide a quality service. If the service quality drops - customers will go elsewhere.

>If the service quality drops - customers will go elsewhere.

Wouldn't that be incentive to provide good service?

I ask because some of the best restaurants in the world do not expect you to tip - ie. Danish restaurants Noma and Alchemist.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#58

Post by Jedd »

tptacek wrote: post #32
Jedd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can just take the final price, divide by 10, multiply by 2, and round whichever direction you want. a) this sounds horrendous, and b) so there's zero pretence that tipping is somehow related to quality of experience? (I ask as a fairly well-travelled Australian, but who rarely sojourned into North America.)

Why is that horrendous? (I get "annoying"). It's the restaurant sharing the cost of labor with the diner, which you're doing one way or the other, but tips have less price stickiness than list prices. There's certainly a "pretense" of tipping as an incentive, and you can treat it that way if you want to (to a point; you can't reasonably tip much below 15%). But you should ignore the pretense; it's not worth the psych…

> Why is that horrendous?

Hmm. Imagine that you never had to consider any kind of unstated, fuzzy mathematical wrangling at restaurants, hairdressers, hotels, in taxis, at stores, etc - your entire life every financial transaction was straightforward.

If you came from that environment, this arrangement would seem horrendous (and annoying).

I understand that there's some cultural exceptionalism involved - there always is - but for most of the (rest of the) world this kind of intentional, onerous, relentless, and needlessly complex obligation is some combination of bewildering, disrespectful, and anathema.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#59

Post by dwohnitmok »

moltar wrote: post #53
dwohnitmok wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh interesting! My impression was that it was 10-15% about two decades ago and has now risen to 15-20% with most people I know tending closer to the 20% edge. Maybe it's simply that my social circles have become more generous tippers.

It’s because wages haven’t been catching up with inflation for decades also. Not just food service, pretty much in every sector, maybe with the exception of tech.

Hasn't wage growth been even with inflation? I don't have sources at the moment, but that was my impression.

That's still not good (you'd hope for an increase in purchasing power), but not as bad as sliding backwards.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#60

Post by motogpjimbo »

tptacek wrote: post #43
Accacin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read, that's not true at all. I'd imagine a whole lot of waiters and waitresses are earning a lot less than you imagine. £10/hour seems more reasonable, but our minimum wage keeps going up and includes holidays, etc. and we do not need to pay health insurance either.

Oh, lots of servers are earning less than that, but in the UK, if there's no tipping norm, and people are generally paid a $14/hr minimum wage instead, then fine dining servers in the US are substantially out-earning those in the UK.

It's worth pointing out that minimum-wage workers in the UK receive various government benefits too, such as help with rent, low rates of taxation etc.

Minimum wage in the UK doesn't provide a lavish lifestyle, but it's more than possible to live on it.

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