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Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

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Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#251

Post by Icedcool »

yters wrote: post #231
crazygringo wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death Only very specific types of meditation, at their advanced levels. The kind of meditation the vast majority of people do in the US, for example, has absolutely zero intention of achieving ego-death. Saying meditation is specifically aimed at causing ego-death makes as much as saying running is specifically aimed at qualifying for the Olympics…

intention doesn't have anything to do with mechanism

With meditation it absolutely does. What you aim at in meditation guides your results.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#253

Post by dorkwood »

hdfhu wrote: post #222
dorkwood wrote: post #188

This is anecdotal, but I feel that learning to meditate has caused my mind to go blank much more easily during conversation. Before I ever knew about meditation, it felt like my brain would always serve up whatever words and ideas were needed to keep the sentence going. I even felt like I was quite a quick-witted person. But now I'll often lose my train of thought and suddenly be left with a completely empty head. I…

Meditation is prolonged concentration on something. Perhaps what you practiced was exactly "thinking about nothing and keeping your mind blank"? That would be the opposite of meditation and could be harmful, I guess. There are very subtle objects used in meditation, like light or space, but it's definitely not nothing.

> Perhaps what you practiced was exactly "thinking about nothing and keeping your mind blank"? That would be the opposite of meditation and could be harmful, I guess.

I mean, it requires prolonged concentration to clear one's head -- but I'll admit that I'm not a meditation expert. Perhaps I was taught incorrectly.

What thoughts should be running through your head while you meditate?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#254

Post by MacsHeadroom »

yters wrote: post #233
xdavidliu wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning. I'm not that familiar with nihilism, but I'm rather surprised that "humans have to give it meaning" is part of the core. That's somewhat non-obvious to me; intuitively I would have expected nihilists to believe that meaning cannot exist. Can you point me toward some sources that say nihilists actually beli…

i question that too what marks humans out from the rest of the meaningless universe that suddenly blesses them as meaning bearers? almost seems to imply some sort of religious idea that humans are not a part of the ubiverse

Another way to understand it is that the universe is truly "objectless" because "objects" are merely concepts in the mind of the "subject."

Non-human subjective experiencers also imagine meaningful objects in their own minds. There's nothing special about humans other than their ability to communicate with other humans.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#256

Post by fsloth »

thevardanian wrote: post #224
fsloth wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self." Yeah, basically you have to realize that the fact you observe all of the normal brain noise is gone does not mean you are gone. You still observe. And most critically, you are not your brain noise, but something beyond that.

Not beyond. Not becoming. The beyond implies a spatial expanse in which one progresses. Becoming implies a temporal expanse in which one progresses. The cessation of these spatiotemporal limits is fundamental to that "state of being" (this phrase itself betrays that). In that sense memory itself creates that time-space substance, because it is through that, that it exists. This is something that is very difficult to…

"because this would also imply that cause and effect are non-objects"

Cause and effect are no less real than, say, the sun. But the sensation of them and the conceptualization of them as we conceive them is a figment of the brain.

Brain itself can be wired in any way. All of our senses of external world are hallucinations inside our head driven by stimuli from sensory organs. All we can ever 'observe' is this hallucination. Yet it would be folly to believe that the external world would not exist. But! Our interpretation of the sensory experience can create lots of unreal things which are not true nor real.

I think the difficulty and key is separating the figments in our heads which reflect actual things from associations and fantasies made by our mind.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#257

Post by 8bitsrule »

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

There are many, many forms of meditation, with many supposed goals. So to say that "meditation is..." is a reduction to absurdity.

If you do something and you don't like the outcome, you stop. Driving a car may also lead to ego-death ... probably much more likely than from meditation. Yet we do it. There are certainly forms of meditation that are risky. There are also forms of Olympic sport that are risky. People disappear simply while taking a walk through the great outdoors.

Are there many hucksters trying to cash in on 'yoga' trends? Sure! I understand from many very old and very-earnest- traditions that a -real- spiritual teacher would -never- charge for help. 'Cashing in' is, after all, pretty much the antithesis of 'uplifting'.

Jung often pointed out that our waking egos are like planets orbiting a Self that's Sun-sized ... and much more in control than we realize. Most spiritual traditions emphasize that there are many stages of realization. (In the east, chakras symbolize this.)

While our present culture places little value on compassion or wisdom, this time is unusual in that way. (We're born with both, but it's easy to get lost.) Many people over millennia have learned that if we make the effort - noone else can do it - there are definite rewards. One place to get an overview of this history (Western perspective) is in Huxley's 'Perennial Philosophy'.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#258

Post by hdfhu »

dorkwood wrote: post #253
hdfhu wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meditation is prolonged concentration on something. Perhaps what you practiced was exactly "thinking about nothing and keeping your mind blank"? That would be the opposite of meditation and could be harmful, I guess. There are very subtle objects used in meditation, like light or space, but it's definitely not nothing.

> Perhaps what you practiced was exactly "thinking about nothing and keeping your mind blank"? That would be the opposite of meditation and could be harmful, I guess. I mean, it requires prolonged concentration to clear one's head -- but I'll admit that I'm not a meditation expert. Perhaps I was taught incorrectly. What thoughts should be running through your head while you meditate?

There should be no usual analytical activity in your mind during that time. Meditation is a lot like watching a still thought with your mind. Beginners pick simple objects like a black triangle on white background and try to keep their mind completely still, but with eyes open, with no other thoughts for 5 mins. People here that do software can easily achieve photographic quality meditation on simple shapes like that triangle. Then you increase complexity and start choosing proper objects like a little Buddha shape. The added complexity makes meditation difficult: the 3d image (which is a reflection of the object) gets blurry, dim or the attention is outright dragged away by other thoughts. It's like trying to balance on one leg with strong unpredictable winds. The goal is to develop strength to balance the mind and properly reflect complex static objects.

Then you switch from objects to ideas and that's a lot harder, but that's the actual goal. For example, you think a lot about the nature or idea of software. Once you think you've found this idea, you sit and spend 5 mins meditating on this idea. Ideas can't be drawn, they don't have shapes and our mind is not really suited for dealing with ideas.

Meditation is addictive. Even at the early stages you'll notice the flow of something thru your body during meditation and the weird, but pleasant feeling of physically stretching out your brains. This addiction is considered an obstacle, so the usual advise is to do a few short sessions that stop once you start noticing that feeling.

Your daily thinking will become sharper as you progress, and you'll get this feeling of physical balance. If it's not the case, you're doing something wrong and you'd have to seek an in person advice.

One particularly dangerous mistake is trying to clear mind of thoughts and make it blank. Tsong-kha-pa wrote a good deal about this mistake in his books to warn people.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#259

Post by totetsu »

JesseMeyer wrote: post #67
charliemil4 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get out of the tailspin? It’s quite hard to “pull up” when there is nothing that feels grounded...

There was no pulling up. And there was no ground beneath my feet. Just an endless ocean with no points of reference by which to orient oneself. So the only course of action was not to search for rocks to cling to, but of learning how to swim, and dive in. As backwards as it may read, I only felt secure after having let go of myself. As odd as this description may sound to someone who has not experienced this, it is i…

Like when you lose your gopro in the surf and you don't have any goggles on.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#260

Post by ayushchat »

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

This is a very interesting take, but I think it applies more to transcendental meditation, not for mindfulness meditation. I think mindful practices are good stress relievers in general, which include free journaling, slow long walks, and also simple thought mindfulness where we just observe our thoughts dispassionately. (The word "meditation" should be removed from this activity IMHO to avoid confusion)
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