Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety • Hacker News Board

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#231

Post by yters » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:40 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #217

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

> meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death Only very specific types of meditation, at their advanced levels. The kind of meditation the vast majority of people do in the US, for example, has absolutely zero intention of achieving ego-death. Saying meditation is specifically aimed at causing ego-death makes as much as saying running is specifically aimed at qualifying for the Olympics…

intention doesn't have anything to do with mechanism

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#232

Post by _skel » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #158

I must be taking meditation way less seriously than most of the other comments. I thought it was basically quiet reflection; a chance to calm your body (with breathing exercises). I had thought it was a chance to see if that reveals something you've been ignoring or to help you ignore something momentarily so you can decompress and evaluate your well being more objectively. That's how I've been treating meditation an…

Meditation in the way western people think about it is kind of like shopping mall yoga: it's a tradition with a long religious history that's been turned into an anodyne "healthy" practice for American consumers.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#233

Post by yters » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

xdavidliu wrote: post #230

mpax wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. How does "life is meaningless" imply "life is useless"? Also, why would nihilism entail radical individualism? The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning, quite the opposite of what you're implying.

> The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning. I'm not that familiar with nihilism, but I'm rather surprised that "humans have to give it meaning" is part of the core. That's somewhat non-obvious to me; intuitively I would have expected nihilists to believe that meaning cannot exist. Can you point me toward some sources that say nihilists actually beli…

i question that too

what marks humans out from the rest of the meaningless universe that suddenly blesses them as meaning bearers? almost seems to imply some sort of religious idea that humans are not a part of the ubiverse

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#234

Post by xenocyon » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:44 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

I'm having a hard time parsing your comment - you're making a lot of aspersions and ending with the generic platitude "there are no panaceas". Can you frame your objection a little more concretely or specifically?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#235

Post by andreilys » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

mg wrote: post #17

They found that about 8 per cent people who try meditation experience an unwanted effect What does that even mean? That 8 percent of people who try meditation experience something "unwanted" within a certain time afterwards? Is that different from a control group? Which control group? When you look at 100 random people people with the same situation and instead of letting them meditate let them go for a walk instead…

Not to mention the selection bias that occurs with a cohort of people who want to try meditation (who already might be predisposed to certain kinds of mental aberrations)

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#236

Post by andreilys » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:49 PM UTC

xdavidliu wrote: post #230

mpax wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. How does "life is meaningless" imply "life is useless"? Also, why would nihilism entail radical individualism? The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning, quite the opposite of what you're implying.

> The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning. I'm not that familiar with nihilism, but I'm rather surprised that "humans have to give it meaning" is part of the core. That's somewhat non-obvious to me; intuitively I would have expected nihilists to believe that meaning cannot exist. Can you point me toward some sources that say nihilists actually beli…

"This - is now my way: where is yours?' Thus I answered those who asked me 'the way'. For the way - does not exist!"

- Nietzsche in Thus Spoke Zarathustra

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#237

Post by visarga » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:49 PM UTC

submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

That sounds great, but in practice I found out that people who meditate too little don't get any results, and people who meditate too much tend to neglect other parts of their life such as work and family (often a glorified attitude under the name of detachment), and over decades become less fulfilled than 'regular' people.

There's a wisdom in the simple life of ordinary people, too, don't need to subject yourself to ascetic practices for it. Ask yourself, would meditating for 10 days help you more than taking a vacation and learning something new, with the same focus? Something practical, that would make you better at life, not just feel better about life.

If spiritual practices like meditation were so powerful in a life affirming way, India would be the most advanced country. Rather than closing your eyes and floating in your empty mind, better to open them an learn what is amazing about the world. The world is more exciting than imagination and internal body feelings.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#238

Post by andreilys » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:55 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #233

xdavidliu wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning. I'm not that familiar with nihilism, but I'm rather surprised that "humans have to give it meaning" is part of the core. That's somewhat non-obvious to me; intuitively I would have expected nihilists to believe that meaning cannot exist. Can you point me toward some sources that say nihilists actually beli…

i question that too what marks humans out from the rest of the meaningless universe that suddenly blesses them as meaning bearers? almost seems to imply some sort of religious idea that humans are not a part of the ubiverse

We've been seeking answers to big questions like where did we come from, why are we here, and where are we going, for a very long time.

Now whether that those answers are accurate is a different question. But I think it's clear that humans crave meaning, and are happy to relegate meaning-making to third party institutions such as organized religion or the media.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#239

Post by rdiddly » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:56 PM UTC

Given that every time I've been depressed it has consisted precisely of detaching from the quotidian world somewhat, sitting still a lot, thinking, being aware of thinking, I'm not surprised by this result. It's too much 'yin'. I notice when the diagnosis is depression the first thing doctors reach for, before pills or anything else, is exercise, movement of any kind, which not coincidentally is a 'yang' thing. (Doesn't always work on its own since the patient has to have enough motivation to go do it.)

When your world is all crazy and on fire with hectic activity, that's when it's the most beneficial to stop and meditate. I think some of the meditation stuff as it's marketed in the West, is first of all done without much regard to the needs of (or actual effect on) those who buy the book/class/etc., and is secondly based on the implicit assumption that "our modern lives" are filled with too much activity - errands and dropping-off-the-kids and whatnot. But if you're depressed the opposite is usually the case.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#240

Post by rdiddly » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:57 PM UTC

mpax wrote: post #213

groby_b wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is not conducive to maintaining any kind of organized group of human beings. The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. Worse, it is also a philosophy that contributes absolutely nothing to actually understanding the nature of the world, which is kind of the point of philosophy. In short, nihilists are…

> The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. How does "life is meaningless" imply "life is useless"? Also, why would nihilism entail radical individualism? The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning, quite the opposite of what you're implying.

It might be more neutral to characterize it as "there's no objectively observable meaning, and whatever meaning exists was constructed by humans."