Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety • Hacker News Board

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#151

Post by JesseMeyer » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

kanyethegreat wrote: post #115

JesseMeyer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no pulling up. And there was no ground beneath my feet. Just an endless ocean with no points of reference by which to orient oneself. So the only course of action was not to search for rocks to cling to, but of learning how to swim, and dive in. As backwards as it may read, I only felt secure after having let go of myself. As odd as this description may sound to someone who has not experienced this, it is i…

> that Buddhists have a rich tradition for navigating these waters What topics could I read about to learn more about this?

I highly recommend as an introduction Alan Watt's 'The Way of Zen', that covers, in great detail, the cultural background, history and practice of Buddhism, in its prominent forms, and its roots in India / Hinduism -- all of which are necessary to comprehend even basic 'traditional' buddhist literature, after having become so institutionalized over the centuries as to have obscure many of the original, and plain to state, insights with now archaic ways of thinking but nevertheless have been maintained essentially untouched.

Then, follow your nose through the bibliography. =)

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#152

Post by dkarl » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

Presenting meditation as something you can do every once in a while when you are feeling bad emotionally and want to feel better is like telling somebody that if they wake up feeling tired and out of shape, they should go for a quick three mile run and then they'll feel great for the rest of the day. It only works for people who are in decent shape already, and not only is it terrible advice for people who are looking for help, it's also presented in a way that makes people feel like something is wrong with them if it doesn't work for them like it supposedly does for other people.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#153

Post by UncleOxidant » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #54

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

>It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. This is true for far Eastern styles of meditation, but it's not true for Christian meditation[1]. It aims to fill the mind rather than to empty it. In general Christian meditation is practiced more by the various Eastern Christian Churches, but there are Western traditions as well. I'm by no means an adept…

Isn't dying to self a central tenet of Christian teaching?

" Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." John 12:24

"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. " Galatians 2:20

" For whoever strives to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. " Mark 8:35

Lots more.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#154

Post by submeta » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an accepting, seeing-current-reality state of mind. It’s also about realizing that you are not your thinking mind (alone). Your thinking mind is a tool, and your thoughts are notions and models about the world. But there is also a level of perception that is meta-mind. A level that is beyond that. A mind that observes your thinking mind. When you don’t equate yourself and the world with your thoughts. Call it intuition if you will. But it’s more than that. Not dichotome as the thinking mind makes it. But holistic. - The Western notion about mindfulness practice is very distorted. Sometimes simplistic. Sometimes negative: „Buddhism is about killing your ego“. No it is not about killing anything. It is about observing it, in a non-judging, patient way. - Mindfulness meditation is about practicing being in the present moment, nothing more than that. And about a set of principles that‘ll help you practice being in the present moment: Being patient, being non-judgemental, perspective, breathing, sitting in silence, observing the breath, observing the thoughts that come and go, not attaching to them, letting go, being in the present moment.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#155

Post by mtalantikite » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

tyre wrote: post #144

Igelau wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering". We don't have good ways of saying or explaining shunyata or dukkha that preserve the nuance of the concepts. Edit: Thic…

Is there a longer translation that gives more nuance than "suffering"? Often times we settle for less precise words in favor of pithiness/conciseness.

For sure, the word is duhkha and has a lot of alternative meanings and explanations beyond just “suffering”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duḥkha

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#156

Post by wavepruner » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

JesseMeyer wrote: post #56

Mo3 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend. On the other hand, I met my now-wife in the depression ward, which in the "active" phase right before my admi…

Meditation is a blade with no hilt. I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old. At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming feeling of beauty and awe that crashed over me. It was as though this was the…

What was the chant?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#157

Post by gentleman11 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

On safari, you can’t reject the tracking cookies on that site. The only button that works is accept all recommended. Anyone have a link that lets you avoid that?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#158

Post by jayd16 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

I must be taking meditation way less seriously than most of the other comments. I thought it was basically quiet reflection; a chance to calm your body (with breathing exercises). I had thought it was a chance to see if that reveals something you've been ignoring or to help you ignore something momentarily so you can decompress and evaluate your well being more objectively.

That's how I've been treating meditation anyway. I thought zen ego death was just overzealous marketing but from the comments its fairly common?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#159

Post by kkotak » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #64

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Most of the anxiety/depression I've experienced revolves around the ego: expectations and pressures I place on myself, guilt/dissatisfaction when I don't feel like I'm meeting those expectations, etc. So a little bit of ego-death is just about the most peaceful thing imaginable for me. The idea that it's not all on my shoulders, that the world moves without me, that this isn't my story to ruin. I don't practice any k…

This is also why people who administer DMT on themselves respond to it in very different ways - primarily due to their mental history and vulnerabilities.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#160

Post by brainless » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

submeta wrote: post #154

Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience (sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have), about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an illusionary state of mind to an a…

I find this subject very interesting. I'm an Indian with a typical understanding of the concept of meditation being about perspective, patience and such ideas.

But I have seen multiple times that Western culture somehow seem to try to extract something out of it. As if trying to commercialize meditation.

Peace with oneself, at one's current state is perhaps the only thing I relate with mindfulness. I have been in depression for years, have anxiety. And I started investing more into mindfulness recently, realizing I lost my roots.

The mind is a powerful tool, more so in silence. That's what I feel personally.