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Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

111–120 of 295 posts

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#111
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

I think its important to note though, that its generally advised against to practice meditation outside of establishing a foundation in virtue/morality. Not that that is stopping anyone (past self included). I would argue that the religious texts are extremely important in grounding the meditation practice in that way. It's very easy to ascribe all kinds of super-natural ideas and beliefs to the stages of insight and…

> I would argue that the religious texts are extremely important in grounding the meditation practice in that way. It's very easy to ascribe all kinds of super-natural ideas and beliefs to the stages of insight

Oh the irony.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#112
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

  . . . which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being
Where are you getting this from? I don't know of any traditions that would describe it in this way.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#113
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts. A pretty common theme is that meditation should be practiced in close proximity to an accomplished master with their guidance. This is not dissimilar to the advice anyone who makes use of psychedelics will give. Of course people want quick and easy so "accomplished master" can easily be subbed out f…

> On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts.

I didn't know that. But I can see that being a "guru" or a "priest" is a profession, say like being a doctor is one.

Now doctors are unlikely to say "go heal yourself". Rather they are likely to say "Come see me in 2 weeks and pay another $300 bucks".

So I suspect if ancient texts say "Do not try this without a teacher" the reason may be that teachers need students.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#114
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

[deleted]

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get out of the tailspin? It’s quite hard to “pull up” when there is nothing that feels grounded...

There was no pulling up. And there was no ground beneath my feet. Just an endless ocean with no points of reference by which to orient oneself. So the only course of action was not to search for rocks to cling to, but of learning how to swim, and dive in. As backwards as it may read, I only felt secure after having let go of myself. As odd as this description may sound to someone who has not experienced this, it is i…

> that Buddhists have a rich tradition for navigating these waters

What topics could I read about to learn more about this?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#116
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.”

This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years.

It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an extreme view that leads to nihilism. At least in the Buddhist traditions I’m aware of, nihilism is a wrong view and the teachings are explicitly not nihilistic.

Yet it’s exceptionally easy to get confused and fall into it if you’re just meditating without any real notion of what the teachings are. All the corporate “meditate for productivity” that has invaded the dialogue in the west I find at least misguided, and at the worst actually harmful.

For anyone that is interested I’d suggest reading Thich Nhat Hanh’s translation and commentary on the heart sutra called “The Other Shore”. It clears up a lot of the teaching on emptiness and will help you not fall into the nihilism trap.

(It’s also useful to note that the modern vipassana movement that is so popular in the west comes from a tradition that doesn’t emphasize the teachings on emptiness, even though they are in fact there in the Pali cannon.)

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#117
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Thank you for saying this! There are hundreds of meditation types and techniques, with many different effects, just like there are treatments in medicine. Meditation is being sold as casual activity, one-size-fits-all, often by people who received only few years of training, if not months. Please look for credited teachers with decades-long monastic experience. Ask them difficult questions.

How do you find these people? What difficult questions are you asking in order to vet them?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#118
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

[deleted]

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#119
I remember reading something a long time ago about a study that showed that people suffering from depressive episodes made more accurate assessments of the true state of their finances, their relationships, etc., than people who were always happy.

What if, in the process of meditating, you've thought long and hard about your lot in life, and have realized that it actually is shit?

Maybe it's a mistake to strictly focus on the "depression is a disease" narrative. Maybe a lot of people actually do have a lot to be sad about while also having nothing they can realistically do about those things. If a person is stuck in a dead-end job, in a place with no opportunity, with responsibilities that prevent you from taking risks, with no savings, then it's really hard to see how that person can be "happy".

I've struggled with depression for most of my adult life. The absolute worst period of depression I went through was when I was single, living alone, working a job I hated, in a city that was far too encouraging of drinking as the only viable past time (Philadelphia). I was very fearful of medication at that time. I had heard a lot of bad stories, not just about side effects, but about effects, like the medication removing both the lows and the highs of their emotional state. There were also stories of negative consequences for people's jobs: losing security clearances and the like (which are very old stories by now, but such rumors don't have a lot of respect for changing times).

I was able to get out of that state through career coaching. I was feeling bad because I hated where I was in life. Fixing that, I got a lot happier. It felt really good to put form to my woes, to put a target on them, and eliminate it, one by one.

I got married. I had kids. And then I hit another, big, depressive period. Work had been a mess going on 5 years by that point. My wife gently pressured me into going to see a doctor and get medication.

I did the medication for a while, and it helped at first, but I think it mostly just confused my own, internal understanding of my emotions. I started it about 2.5 years ago, in the middle of a hellscape of an office. After a year, it just stopped working. The doctor increased my dosage levels, but things never went back to square. I think what happened was that I just recalibrated my understanding of my emotions. I had physical cues before the medication: heart racing, running thoughts, a physical feeling of the floor dropping out from under me. Now, I lacked those feelings, but I actually recognized situations in which I should have felt them, and in some ways the lack of the feelings felt like stumbling, like taking a step for a stair that isn't there. I spent another year on the medication, under the belief that things would be a lot worse without it. There were some negative side effects that were also having a bad impact on my mood.

But I think the biggest positive impact on my mood was getting a good job where I'm respected and nobody brow-beats me over made up deadlines. Halfway through that last year of medication, I changed jobs. I noticed things getting better. I got so sick of not feeling like I was in control of my body, listening to doctors who had no clue what was going on just make guesses at what to do, that I told my doctor I was going to make my own guesses and quit the medication.

I've now been off of it for 6 months and everything is... as good as the best days when I first started the medication, minus the negative side effects, so better in every aspect.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#120
post #39

This is the equivalent of saying exercise is bad because "People who engage in physical activities sometimes experience unwanted muscle soreness and joint pain". Dredging up old repressed emotions is one of the first things I learned about meditation, and you're supposed to learn to deal with them instead of keeping them buried in your head forever.

This is a good analogy.

At the same time though meditation traditionally was practiced in various communities with social safety nets where elaborate maps of mental states and wise gurus could help guide you while the most potent and esoteric practices like Kundalini activation or advanced breathwork were kept hidden for most people until later stages.

Today these maps that all still very much exist inside various lineages through poetry, koans, books or through oral teachings have fallen away while people often sit alone in their rooms looking at apps completely deterritorialized from the incredible wisdom that sorrounds these rituals and that in my eyes form a very important yin to the yang of practice.

Besides that psychotheraphy and bodywork is also often a good preliminary "grounding mechanism" that already very disassociated people need as to not make themselves disassociate even more, or take a very deep fall into emotion after having fled from them for years.

This fall is called "Dark night of the soul" in modern language and is very well known.

For people interested in this stuff let me recommend the Stream Entry subreddit based on the books by Daniel Ingram "Mastering The Core Teachings of the Buddha" which is a pretty interesting and STEM like exploration of the subject - but that is also a bit cold and potent so above warnings apply.

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