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Google: Open Letter to Australians

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Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting. it seems to me that if Google really wanted to influence Australian public opinion, they have far more sophisticated ways to go about it than this clumsy attempt at PSA outreach slash fear mongering. It's almost as if they need to be seen to be taking some responses to the media payment legislation but they don't really care. That's what's interesting to me. I wonder why they would not care. perhaps beca…

Google's entire business depends on being squeaky clean. If they ever got caught doing "sophisticated" opinion influencing, they'd lose half their value overnight as customers switched to alternatives. And then every democratic government would join in with a serious kicking, given their elections are so vulnerable to said influencing. I think Facebook sails very close to the wind here, but my impression is that Goog…

I doubt this. we are beholden to Google. we can't just go elsewhere even if we disagree with some things some people in Google do. advertiser or consumer. or government. they ain't losing half their business anytime soon, no matter what kind of things they pull.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#212
The legislation [0] gives all news businesses (including smaller ones) a pathway to force Google to enter into an agreement with them. It opens up Google and Facebook to world of costly business dealings.

With little effort, I could start “Deco’s Local Newspaper” and publish a few issues online. This will give me a pathway to force Google to “deal with me.” This negotiation, mediation and arbitration could incur Google thousands of dollars in employee time, arbitration fees, and paying for half of the legal costs. Google cannot say “no” from the start. They can’t even ignore me without being in violation of the new legislation.

Relevant snippets:

“... news media businesses can participate in the code if:

- They predominantly produce ‘core news’, and publish this online: [...]

- They adhere to appropriate professional editorial standards: [...]

- They maintain editorial independence from the subjects of their news coverage: [...]

- They operate primarily in Australia for the purpose of serving Australian audiences: [...]”

“If the parties have not reached an agreement for the inclusion of news on digital platform services within three months of negotiation, and the parties have attended at least one day of mediation, news media businesses can elect to commence arbitration.”

“Arbitration under the code would be performed through ‘final offer arbitration’. The digital platform and news media business (or a collective of news media businesses) must each submit a final offer on the remuneration to be paid by the digital platform within 10 days of the commencement of arbitration. Parties would then have a further 5 business days to provide comments on each other’s offer.”

“After receiving submissions and comments from the parties and the ACCC, the arbitrator would have 30 business days to choose one or the other of the parties’ ‘final offers’, which would form a binding agreement between the parties.”

Therefore: I can force Google to enter into an agreement with me (even as a small business) and incur thousands of dollars of overhead costs in the process.

I’m not one to use hyperbole, but this is insane. I would not be surprised if Google turns off Google Search entirely for Australia when this code passes.

Also, this legislation is specifically for Google and Facebook: “Digital platforms must participate in the code if the Treasurer makes a determination specifying that the code would apply to them. The Government has announced that the code would initially apply only to Facebook and Google. Other digital platforms may be added to the code if they hold a significant bargaining power imbalance with Australian news media businesses in the future.”

This also seems strange, though I’m not against legislation specifically for mega-corps. Small businesses / startups are already hard enough to start with all the legislation they need to comply with, so protecting them from irrelevant codes like this is healthy for industry.

[0] https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/DPB%20-%20Draft%20news%...

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#213

To all the people (hopefully Australians) who paint this as the government propping up legacy media: Isn't it better to have control of your media in local, Australian-owned and regulated megacorps, rather than some faceless megacorp in another country?

You say that as if this code of conduct would achieve it. But it isn't really about that. This is not about who controls the media, it will not change that either way. If they ACCC cared about that they would not have tolerated the near monopoly of Australia's media that already exists.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#214
post #132
post #101

> News media businesses alone would be given information that would help them artificially inflate their ranking over everyone else, even when someone else provides a better result I'm not sure how Google wins this one because it seems like an easy comeback is "well why don't you just be transparent and tell everybody that information". Ultimately, as long as they have anything resembling "secret sauce" they will be…

> I'm not sure how Google wins this one because it seems like an easy comeback is "well why don't you just be transparent and tell everybody that information". Ultimately, as long as they have anything resembling "secret sauce" they will be in the cross hairs of regulators for unfair treatment (even if just alleged, not proven), and the minute they don't they will lose their competitive advantage. Because then people…

Yes, same as the phone book for AAA Plumbers.

Playing devil's advocate, gaming search engines used to be about keywords then it became more about links. SEOs nowadays talk about "EAT", expertise, authority, and trustworthiness. It's still possible for marketers to mimic quality signals but it's less easy.

It would be much easier if the author of webpages were to declare themselves, sort of a Pagerank but applied on a person/topic level. It could/can be done with structured data. This of course has privacy implications but it keeps the publishers as transparent to the search engine as possible. Verification of sorts would be needed so other people don't use your authorship details on their own site. It's the kind of social fabric/data Google could've perhaps used Google+ for.

Slightly more on topic, marketers used to be able to do accurate keyword research with Google, and also see the keywords that people searched for when landing on their site, which is quite useful for figuring out their intent. Google keeps all that data to themselves now.

I find their "concerns" about "use of private data" a bit laughable, considering they used your personal search history to try and target you on sites you visit across the web via ads. They don't mind retaining data about users, they just don't like having to share it with anyone.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#215
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(rant) > they behave much better... https://medium.com/@rossformaine/i-was-googles-head-of-inter... > decent custodians of their users data They cannot protect that data from law and enforcement no matter what. De-anonymized, aggregated, ephemeral... no matter which way you look at it, data they collect is a ticking time-bomb. And because they amass so much, others that have similar business models are forced to foll…

The claim you're replying to is very specific, and starts off by acknowledging that Google does not live up to "Don't be evil" in general , so I don't think the Medium post (which indeed describes some pretty evil behavior) refutes it. The claim is that Google does a much better job of protecting and securing your private information and not turning it against you than the Australian government - not that they do goo…

The "don't be evil" was always widely misunderstood.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who works on ranking and personalization products, I can confidently assure you that you would not prefer a less personalized experience. You don't have to take my word for it though, you can opt-out of personalization on Google here: https://myactivity.google.com/activitycontrols Try it for a month and see if you prefer it.

I miss the old Google search, the one that didn't try to guess what I mean, but instead did exactly what I said. I can see how for your average user "guess what I mean" might produce better and quicker results, but for power users (who are entirely comfortable with search syntax, and who sometimes may be searching incredibly obscure things), it produces a worse experience The only type of search personalisation I wan…

Could you give an example of when it doesn't do what you ask? In my experience it always only makes it more specific when it's vague in the first place and never overrides what specificity you gave.

For example if I write `range`, it's extremely vague but one of the first results I get is Python. If I write range JavaScript obviously that'll be first.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#217
post #101

> News media businesses alone would be given information that would help them artificially inflate their ranking over everyone else, even when someone else provides a better result I'm not sure how Google wins this one because it seems like an easy comeback is "well why don't you just be transparent and tell everybody that information". Ultimately, as long as they have anything resembling "secret sauce" they will be…

interesting. it seems to me that if Google really wanted to influence Australian public opinion, they have far more sophisticated ways to go about it than this clumsy attempt at PSA outreach slash fear mongering. It's almost as if they need to be seen to be taking some responses to the media payment legislation but they don't really care. That's what's interesting to me. I wonder why they would not care. perhaps beca…

> It's almost as if they need to be seen to be taking some responses to the media payment legislation but they don't really care

They care. I'm currently situated in Australia and did a random google search and a giant popup jumped up saying "The way Aussies use Google is at risk". No way they are doing that on their main search page if they do not care.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#218
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In regards to parent commenters [0] link, this is the story that got a journalist's home raided by the Australian Federal Police (AFP) because she received leaked information (that turned out to be 100% correct) that the Department for Home Affairs was planning to allow the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD) to spy on Australian citizens. Directly quoting from the linked article: ASD powers have been a source of co…

How do you draw the conclusion that the Australian people want this behaviour? As far as I can tell none us want this but once elected the politicians fail to action what the people want. Over and over again...

This may sound like a technicality, but what I said was that this is the Government that the Australian people want. Reason being that they voted it in … again. It's not as if the current government have changed their stripes since the election before last.

Australians have become, in my view (happy to be proven wrong), very conservative because of the fact we've had it so good for so long, and therefore are a bit weak / soft and will cling to whatever excuse is presented by politicians that will appear to keep the good times rolling a bit longer, no matter how illogical the premise or how much it sacrifices a future just too far away to be scary yet.

Climate change and broadband as two divisive examples. They cost too much. Standing athwart history yelling Stop!

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#219
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nope, Google doesn't give a shit about that. They just hate having to pay for displaying content from news media.

Why would anyone be thrilled about having to funnel cash to News Corp? The news business is dead, and good riddance because it descended into yellow journalism and clickbait garbage. Check the News.com.au homepage and observe it looks like a worse Daily Mail.

>The news business is dead, and good riddance because it descended into yellow journalism and clickbait garbage.

I think it could be the other way around, where people expecting news online and free has meant declining revenues, click-bait and ad-infested news articles.

News aggregators get the user's onto their site without the overhead.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#220

Google evil etc etc aside, they have been decent custodians of their users data. I don't really want to trust Google, but they behave much better than the Australian government, who recently admitted they spy on their citizens [0], can coerce citizens and companies to install backdoors into their companies software [1]. I trust Murdoch less than the government, and much much less than Google. Remember when Murdoch in…

(rant) > they behave much better... https://medium.com/@rossformaine/i-was-googles-head-of-inter... > decent custodians of their users data They cannot protect that data from law and enforcement no matter what. De-anonymized, aggregated, ephemeral... no matter which way you look at it, data they collect is a ticking time-bomb. And because they amass so much, others that have similar business models are forced to foll…

Well, there's the issue of "can you really protect the data?" and then there's "who would you most trust to protect it?". Maybe you can make the case for Google in the second scenario, but if course you can't *really^ protect the data.

So, then it becomes, "what can be done to reduce the amount of data collected and the risk it isn't protected?"

That's where this law appears to be a step backwards.

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