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Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

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Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#161

"Even as we've grown, we've remained a lean organization. We do not have room for people who don't do the actual work." That is a priceless comment. It exposes Jason's huge blind spot. Worse, it is on this undefended flank that great future pain may be inflicted. I look forward to the post-learning article. The underlying premise/assumption is that a 'manager' is not only not doing 'the' work, but they aren't really…

"What Jason’s comment misses, and it sounds like a blind spot, is the understanding that you cannot successfully navigate and row at the same time."

I strongly disagree, and I think the metaphor leads one astray.

In a startup there is not a navigator and then an army of oarsmen. Instead there's a team with diverse skills attempting to understand and solve a complex problem. A manager can only direct rats to the cheese if they themself fully understand mazes, cheese and shoveling shit. But if each rat has diverse and individual ways to contribute to getting closer to the cheese, the job of a single manager providing vision and directing becomes geometrically harder as each new skill/role is added. Imagine each rat speaks one of a babel of different languages, and we start seeing how hard the job is for our imaginary leader.

It's incorrect to assume that the rats shoveling the shit don't have their own vantage on the cheese, or that the oarsmen can't see the stars and where the ship is headed on their own.

This is the difference between an industrial structure and a a research structure.

Top down command structures are extremely effective when everything is already understood. It's what you want when you're solving a known problem with known tools, like building commodity products on a production line.

But top down networks face enormous challenges when trying to achieve only partially understood goals within complex changing environments. Integrating feedback as it travels back up the tree is very difficult to do effectively. Top down command networks are at their peak efficiency when feedback doesn't need to go up very high. Otherwise, the top of the structure becomes overwhelmed.

This divide is almost entirely why large technology organizations end up innovating primary by acquisition rather than internal discovery (example: MS). They have to buy both solutions to new market opportunities as well as the people who understand and built those solutions, because their internal structure is very poor at learning and adaptation.

Collaborative problem solving is different. It relies on frequent and open ended horizontal communication. It often appears directionless. But what it facilitates is overlapping shared understandings far more detailed than could ever be centralized in one person. It allows points of command to emerge when necessary, and disappear when not. The ease with which a small team does this organic communication and discovery is one of the huge advantages of small companies. It's not one you should shed lightly.

The only way to do this in large companies is to maintain a very horizontal structure where individual business units have a great deal of autonomy in accomplishing their goals, and where employees can fluidly move between teams to spread knowledge.

There's another option for the big company: create an internal market structure. But AFAIK no one has a repeatable template for quite how to do that (and apparently Google's attempt at it has somewhat failed).

In any case, returning to flogging your metaphor:

The smart navigator will listen to the oarsman: perhaps they've noticed something I haven't? And the very smart navigator will teach all who are interested about his skills, so that the whole boat becomes more valuable than it's competitors.

And notice that no where in here have I mentioned any terminology about prestige, respect, or "actual work". This stuff is cancerous, and whenever you see it, get rid of it immediately.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, sometimes the cheese is Gouda. When the cheese is Gouda, it is the cheese of customer service, and the job of the person standing above the maze it to identify if there is Gouda and where it is. But sometimes the cheese is Emmenthaler, and when the cheese is Emmenthaler, then there is a rule† that the Gouda manager and the Emmenthaler manager must share the cheese or else by finding maze paths that don't connec…

Excellent. This is the key bit for me: "...in a well-managed organization, one President or CEO can structure roles such that everyone is clear about the business value they provide and can manage their effort accordingly." And once achieving this point, you neither change the people in the organization, nor do you change the direction of the overall effort. Life will be grand. So 100% agreement on the goal of what e…

"And once achieving this point, you neither change the people in the organization, nor do you change the direction of the overall effort."

Good luck with that one.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#163
Skimming the comments, it seems a lot of people are missing a significant point - the employee is in customer service. Customer service is a dead-end job. It doesn't take long to get on top of your game, and there's really nowhere to go.

Managers and marketers get new products and changing business conditions to keep them interested, developers get new tech to explore and tech debt to resolve.

Customer service... is easy to master and once done there's no new fields to conquer. It's ultimately boring. Fine if you want a job to show up to and just do, but if you want to be interested in developing/advancing skills, it's not going to happen in customer service.

I actually find it a little insulting that the tone of the article is a little "well, the developers can handle 'not advancing', why can't the customer support person?".

The professional development tree for customer support looks like a stump.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, sometimes the cheese is Gouda. When the cheese is Gouda, it is the cheese of customer service, and the job of the person standing above the maze it to identify if there is Gouda and where it is. But sometimes the cheese is Emmenthaler, and when the cheese is Emmenthaler, then there is a rule† that the Gouda manager and the Emmenthaler manager must share the cheese or else by finding maze paths that don't connec…

Excellent. This is the key bit for me: "...in a well-managed organization, one President or CEO can structure roles such that everyone is clear about the business value they provide and can manage their effort accordingly." And once achieving this point, you neither change the people in the organization, nor do you change the direction of the overall effort. Life will be grand. So 100% agreement on the goal of what e…

He doesn't necessarily miss the value of managers, in fact he says that he has managers, just not one person who's sole role is a manager, they rotate every week.

When you mention technical workers being suspicious of managers and managers believing that there job is more difficult than technical work, you're talking about the exact situation that Jason mentions trying to avoid. One way of being less suspicious of the value of someone is to do the work that they do. That's what he's talking about.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#165
post #79
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like your approach, especially making everyone manager for a week. I think the only problem I see with it is that if people want to find another job, their 37signals title makes it seem that they essentially "went nowhere". So even if you are paying them a lot more then when they started and they are the best customer service person ever, their resume still says: "Jane Doe - Customer Service Rep 2005-2011" w…

It looks unimpressive... if you don't know 37s, Honestly I can't imagine that even their CSRs have _that_ hard of a time finding more work.

If they worked in such a high profile company like 37signals and did good work, all they need is ask for a few references and they can easily land a good position (if not making full use of their experience to run their own company).

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#166
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like your approach, especially making everyone manager for a week. I think the only problem I see with it is that if people want to find another job, their 37signals title makes it seem that they essentially "went nowhere". So even if you are paying them a lot more then when they started and they are the best customer service person ever, their resume still says: "Jane Doe - Customer Service Rep 2005-2011" w…

Although they will have had the experience of being a manager (albeit for 1/4 of the time), and having been in both the manager and employee role during the same time period, they probably end up learning more about being a good manager than most people who have the title "Manager". With 4-5 people, I think it makes a lot of sense.

How?

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#167
post #163

Skimming the comments, it seems a lot of people are missing a significant point - the employee is in customer service . Customer service is a dead-end job. It doesn't take long to get on top of your game, and there's really nowhere to go. Managers and marketers get new products and changing business conditions to keep them interested, developers get new tech to explore and tech debt to resolve. Customer service... is…

I dunno, they could get more involved in the product so that they can diagnose more simple issues without having to pass it on to one of the devs. They could get more involved in design based on the feedback that gets passed through them, they would have a good sense of what is well received and doesn't work well.

For straight up customer service person you would be right, but I think there is a lot of room to move there in a flexible organisation. Depends on the person I guess, it doesn't surprise me really they would see more turnover here than they would of developers.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#168
post #83

Way to reward the one critical person who actually has to do the hard work of interacting with your customers AFTER they've been sold and paid you money. That's the hard part because it's only dealing with problems and never "great to have to call you". I guess customer service these days is disposable and easily replaceable.

I actually feel like I got quite a reward for my time at 37signals - Yes, that's me Jason's talking about :) Since this topic is sort of centered around a small part of my experience, I'd love to shed some light on a couple points: True! I started my own business! For about 7 hours of my life I didn't know what I was going to do if I couldn't bloom at 37signals, and then I told David and Jason I was starting my own c…

As a woman who has also been a CSR and has almost exclusively worked around men in the computer tech industry I think you are making the best of the situation and I applaud your noble efforts to move upwards. I think there are many subtle details most others around here will never understand (or even try to).

But I still think you got a raw deal no matter how they spin it and I firmly believe in the back of their minds you were always flagged as "disposable" (replaceable) if necessary. I've seen it over and over again over the years.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#169
I've started companies that grew from 1 to 50 people. I find that business advice from 37signals is often quite naïve and I hope people treat it as a data point, not as a set of guidelines.

Managing a company below 25 people is relatively easy. You can still talk to most people every day, you can gather them all in one room, information flow is unrestricted. But staying under 25 people means for most companies that you are stifling growth.

Once you get above the magical 25 people threshold, you'll find that it is simply impossible to manage the company effectively using a completely flat structure. Also, you'll discover a lot of new problems you never suspected existed before: you'll need internal PR, for instance, as people in one part of the company won't know what people in other parts are doing. There will be myths to dispel, growing animosities, lack of direction. And there is simply no way you can keep your pretty flat structure with 45 people.

I know that 37signals' advice resonates with people. They are the cool kids. But keep in mind they are an exceptional company, in every sense of the word.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#170
post #148
post #54

This really resonated for me because we have almost exactly the same company dynamics at play (we're of roughly the same size). I'm not sure we have similar answers, but one response to the problem of not being able to afford people who don't do real work is to make sure everyone is doing real work. We're primarily a services firm, and everybody in that org, including Dave, our President, is billable. It's something…

20-40 employee bracket here! All of our employees are billable (sort of). It's hard to explain our structure but needless to say our CEO/COO/Operations Director/Consulting Director/CFO all work as a team and are never really limited to their "designated" positions. Our Operations Director has been billing on a project for 4 years. Our company has an interesting dynamic. I would say everyone has the ability to "speak…

I know this isn't quite what either of you have said, but someone needs to point this out

"real work" != "billable work"

"Everyone does billable work" seems great from the $ POV. That doesn't mean that people who are never billable aren't critical too.

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