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Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

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Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#251

Post by Fordec »

fermienrico wrote: post #190
pyrrhotech wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yea, I agree the natural beauty is astounding. It's the extreme left wing, near Bolshevik culture and attitude that has destroyed it for me. I say this as a lifelong democrat.

I agree, SF/Oakland/Berkeley do not resonate with me as a life-long democrat as well. Extreme-left wingers in my view stand head to head with extreme-right wingers. These people are the cancer of the society IMO.

I think it's less extreme left wingers in the Anarchist / Communist / Marxist sense and more committed libertarians. Particularly the fintech libertarian segment who were attracted to the industry/area through the original interpreted idea that bitcoin was.

It's less that the extremes are on two opposite ends, but just two flavors of the right of the economic ideology spectrum who share a goal of not wanting to be taxed and don't wish to fund/provide public services.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#252

Post by adjkant »

andreilys wrote: post #246
adjkant wrote: post #192

These HN comments don't seem to grasp that there are two distinct groups of people here, and these trends can/will counteract eachother: the ones that are in the city for work, and the ones that are in the city because they love cities. COVID creates an exodus of one, but people in the latter category are also moving into cities as well as prices drop and they are no longer priced out. HN folks love to complain about…

> “ Even in the limited state, so many things I have access to simply wouldn't be in other areas“ Such as? I genuinely don’t see any appeal in living in a city during a global pandemic when there are massive restrictions on what you can do. Yes pre-covid the appeal of a City was great. But post covid? I think you get a lot more bang for your buck outside of the city (I.e. living in Tahoe or even smaller cities like S…

See this thread + some other replies, but it seems I'm far from alone on this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24180321

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#253

Post by shortandsweet »

adjkant wrote: post #210
chrisco255 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now? As for "white flight" it's more of a "white collar flight" where people with money and resources and higher income remote jobs will leave as long as living conditions suck.

> Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now? Right now, I've basically reallocated my budget of city activities towards local restaurants, and I've been eating a ton of great delivery. As the cases have slowed, I'm cautiously considering outdoor dining. Either way, I'm eating great food right now. I live in Brooklyn, so Prospect Park (central park of the…

Take your fake wall. I have the sierras at my back door.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#254

Post by augustus0 »

crooked-v wrote: post #222
fermienrico wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, SF/Oakland/Berkeley do not resonate with me as a life-long democrat as well. Extreme-left wingers in my view stand head to head with extreme-right wingers. These people are the cancer of the society IMO.

One bit of broader context to keep in mind is that "extreme" left-wingers in the US are merely 'the left' by, say, European standards, where the US as a whole is seen as a right-leaning country.

I think that used to be more true 30 years ago or so, but isn't anymore. As a person from a liberal western country living in the US now, Americans (and specifically certain regions like the Bay Area) now hold all the most extreme positions on the spectrum.

"Extreme" left used to be about worker rights, universal health care, sheltering the poor, or reducing global strife (say the anti-war movements of the 60s/70s).

Bay Area left is now about grievance politics, defunding the police, being anti-tech (represented as being anti-gentrification, or anti-billionaire, but the deeper issue is usually anti-tech, which is seen as what made living in SF/Oakland unaffordable, as opposed to say, obstructionism), etc. It's gotten a lot more extreme in recent years, and I hesitate to even call it "left" because it's more like they've branch off along a new dimension on the axis. You get some of that in Europe too, but it's nowhere near as radicalized.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#255

Post by adjkant »

jariel wrote: post #236
adjkant wrote: post #192

These HN comments don't seem to grasp that there are two distinct groups of people here, and these trends can/will counteract eachother: the ones that are in the city for work, and the ones that are in the city because they love cities. COVID creates an exodus of one, but people in the latter category are also moving into cities as well as prices drop and they are no longer priced out. HN folks love to complain about…

? There are plenty of cities to move to that are not SF or NYC and I bet the vast majority of those bailing SF are moving to other urban areas.

If you dig into the comments, it seems the anecdotal evidence isn't pointing that way, but more towards suburban living. That said, to address the main issue:

> There are plenty of cities to move to that are not SF or NYC

If you are a city lover of my ilk, in the US, there are actually quite few options that hold the same traits beyond these two. Seattle, Chicago, Boston, and LA would be maybe the other four. For reference, those values generally would be things like good public transit / lack of car need, high density of food and cultures, walkability, arts/culture scenes (many museums, local art scenes, local music scenes), etc.

That's not to say you can't find mini versions of these among a set of 10-20 smaller US cities, but for those who primarily value these things, options are actually quite limited and thats IMO one of the big reasons we see huge rising city prices as the group who has these values grow. It's a supply problem. My theory is that if smaller cities started invested in public transit projects, that alone could alleviate some of the crazy city pricing we see today.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#256

Post by mrgordon »

adjkant wrote: post #244
01100011 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the exception of a specialized gym for climbing, none of what you've listed is anything unique to an urban environment. I've lived in various suburbs my whole life and have everything else you've listed. For much of that time, I also had a private backyard, which is something you generally don't get in urbia. You can't beat the efficiency of an urban environment though.

I think you underestimate the density of restaurants and cuisines available. No suburb I have encountered gets close to matching this situation. Suburbs also typically require cars, something I don't own and never want to own. I don't want a backyard either as that just means another thing to maintain against entropy! All of this to say, it depends on what you value :)

Yeah I’m not sure why people don’t get that walking past the climbing gym, a hundred varied restaurants, and a wide assortment of local shops on the way home is different than driving 20 minutes to go eat or go to the gym.

My complaint about all these articles is prices have barely changed in NY and SF but they all like to proclaim some huge shift. Every time I check to see if there really are major discounts and I’m disappointed.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#257

Post by Nasrudith »

prostoalex wrote: post #17
cjlars wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three possibilities: 1. All the bay area companies realize they can employ the best talent remotely from around the country (globe?) successfully. The SF pay premium drops. 2. Bay Area companies pay according to cost of living, many remotely. Some people move, some stay. SF pay premium holds. 3. Everyone realizes the pre pandemic normal was right all along and having a lot of talented people in the same building matt…

Feels like we've been through #1 with the wave of Indian outsourcing prophesied to eat up US IT industry 20 years ago. If Austin or Denver offer employees at a discount, why not Manila and Bangalore?

The real reason is because talent can travel and would be more likely to go to higher paying areas.

Cut too much and it is "pay peanuts and get monkeys". This isn't implying any innate inferiority of foreign nationals but that at large if they could already get $200k/yr instead of $20k/yr of course they would heavily bias the talent towards it leaving the average far worse. Plus businesses around then already should have learned a painful lesson during previous failed cost cutting attempts that IT isn't factory drudge work.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#258

Post by baddox »

shortandsweet wrote: post #253
adjkant wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now? Right now, I've basically reallocated my budget of city activities towards local restaurants, and I've been eating a ton of great delivery. As the cases have slowed, I'm cautiously considering outdoor dining. Either way, I'm eating great food right now. I live in Brooklyn, so Prospect Park (central park of the…

Take your fake wall. I have the sierras at my back door.

I love the Sierras and have spent a lot of nights in the backcountry, but good luck getting any permits now. Pre-pandemic it was already extremely difficult. Now you need to get up at 7am and grab a day use ticket to even enter Yosemite (or even drive through!).

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#259

Post by zepto »

wwwwwwwww wrote: post #111
jod53 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps true for society depending on your views, but the point of a city is simply somewhere many people want to live together. A sign of a healthy city is steady growth, this could be from the opportunities available or the attractiveness of the quality of life of the city. For Sf, the opportunity aspect is strong enough so people are willing to overlook the widespread homelessness.

> depending on your views Not views, but human history.

What historical societies have provided for ‘all of their people’?

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#260

Post by biztos »

jeffdn wrote: post #191
DanBC wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome. > But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference. I'd question your stats about mental illness and substance misuse disorder, but even if we accept that most homeless people are ei…

We don't want to go back to that, but the replacement of that system with a choice between homelessness or incarceration hasn't exactly been a success. There has to be a better way.

The link in the post you are replying to claims to be a better way. (I agree but I'm not an expert.)
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