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Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

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Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#241

Post by Tiktaalik »

justchilly wrote: post #181
lostmyoldone wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

San Fransisco has one of the highest, and in some cases - highest - housing and rental prices in the US. If taxes are as high as you claim, it would be more rational to argue that the high prices are indirectly caused by that tax, rather than prices being held down by taxes. Several causes seems more likely for a change in inventory, or pricing. An extremely high cost of housing and the consequently smaller than aver…

If you make $250k in SF (sounds high, but about average for the people I know that are leaving SF), state income tax alone is $19,996. If you make that in Texas, state income tax is $0. That $20k/year is for many people a bigger deal than the cost of living. Most people I know leaving were home owners or rent controlled. Source: moved to Austin in June.

lmao at the idea of caring about $20k when you make $250k

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#242

Post by zepto »

adjkant wrote: post #223
jasode wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there are two distinct groups of people here, and these trends can/will counteract eachother: the ones that are in the city for work, and the ones that are in the city because they love cities. COVID creates an exodus of one, but people in the latter category are also moving into cities as well as prices drop and they are no longer priced out. I don't think it's as simple as one group replacing another so it's a was…

I don't think it's going to be a wash, or prices wouldn't fall. You're right that this will decrease tax bases, so I guess the real question is "by how much?". Only time will tell what that looks like, but I think that will lead more to rebudgeting/allocating than just objective negative losses. Your specific examples are interesting though, as NYC's population explicitly rejected Amazon's HQ2 with public backlash. N…

It’s also worth noting that this has happened before in SF multiple times, to varying degrees, and the result has generally been an invigoration of culture in one way or another.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#243

Post by Schweigi »

momokoko wrote: post #142

I think you have to realize this is San Francisco specifically. Not the entire Bay Area. A lot of people worked in places south of San Francisco and then commuted south because SF is basically the only city nearby that isn’t awful. But now that everything is closed down, all the good parts of SF are generally gone. Who wants to live in a cramped apartment with too many roommates and no yard? The trade was always that…

People are definitely moving away from the South Bay too. It’s not only San Fransisco. We recently renewed our lease (apartment) in Cupertino and the lease went down 19%. Plenty of complexes nearby went down similar in price and even offer one month free rent.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#244

Post by adjkant »

01100011 wrote: post #239
adjkant wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now? Right now, I've basically reallocated my budget of city activities towards local restaurants, and I've been eating a ton of great delivery. As the cases have slowed, I'm cautiously considering outdoor dining. Either way, I'm eating great food right now. I live in Brooklyn, so Prospect Park (central park of the…

With the exception of a specialized gym for climbing, none of what you've listed is anything unique to an urban environment. I've lived in various suburbs my whole life and have everything else you've listed. For much of that time, I also had a private backyard, which is something you generally don't get in urbia. You can't beat the efficiency of an urban environment though.

I think you underestimate the density of restaurants and cuisines available. No suburb I have encountered gets close to matching this situation. Suburbs also typically require cars, something I don't own and never want to own. I don't want a backyard either as that just means another thing to maintain against entropy!

All of this to say, it depends on what you value :)

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#245

Post by dangus »

chrisco255 wrote: post #200
adjkant wrote: post #192

These HN comments don't seem to grasp that there are two distinct groups of people here, and these trends can/will counteract eachother: the ones that are in the city for work, and the ones that are in the city because they love cities. COVID creates an exodus of one, but people in the latter category are also moving into cities as well as prices drop and they are no longer priced out. HN folks love to complain about…

Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now? As for "white flight" it's more of a "white collar flight" where people with money and resources and higher income remote jobs will leave as long as living conditions suck.

I don't live in NYC, but I can advocate for the weird idea that the city actually has much more enjoyable COVID-friendly people-friendly spaces than the suburbs.

The retail businesses in the city are open, with precautions, just like in the suburbs. That isn't really a difference. The difference is that shops and restaurants in the city were more plentiful and better to begin with.

Now, try getting food (restaurant or grocery) delivery for a reasonable price in your typical suburb. Suburban folks didn't get stuff delivered before COVID, they hopped in their car. Many suburbs and exurbs don't really do delivery outside of your typical pizza places, and if they do they cost a lot for each delivery. I know a more rural friend who constantly has delivery apps cancel due to a lack of available drivers.

The city already had the delivery advantage in the first place, which is in turn a COVID advantage. I know people who get delivery for 100% of their goods and don't own a car at all, and these deliveries were far cheaper than the suburbs due to the density.

Not only that, when the only safe thing to do is go outside, I think the city wins, at least for me. City dwellers already walk and go outside more than people in the suburbs. In contrast, my relatives in the suburbs and exurbs can't really go on walks outside of their sub-development because the sidewalks disappear and it turns into a 55-mph zone.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#246

Post by andreilys »

adjkant wrote: post #192

These HN comments don't seem to grasp that there are two distinct groups of people here, and these trends can/will counteract eachother: the ones that are in the city for work, and the ones that are in the city because they love cities. COVID creates an exodus of one, but people in the latter category are also moving into cities as well as prices drop and they are no longer priced out. HN folks love to complain about…

> “ Even in the limited state, so many things I have access to simply wouldn't be in other areas“

Such as? I genuinely don’t see any appeal in living in a city during a global pandemic when there are massive restrictions on what you can do. Yes pre-covid the appeal of a City was great. But post covid? I think you get a lot more bang for your buck outside of the city (I.e. living in Tahoe or even smaller cities like San Diego)

SF is also incredibly dysfunctional as a city. Walking down market street can be traumatic and disheartening. It truly boggles the mind that the local government does nothing to help the situation and often puts policies in place that exacerbate the situation.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#247

Post by throwaway13337 »

crooked-v wrote: post #222
fermienrico wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, SF/Oakland/Berkeley do not resonate with me as a life-long democrat as well. Extreme-left wingers in my view stand head to head with extreme-right wingers. These people are the cancer of the society IMO.

One bit of broader context to keep in mind is that "extreme" left-wingers in the US are merely 'the left' by, say, European standards, where the US as a whole is seen as a right-leaning country.

This is often repeated but, as an American who lived in Europe for some years, it doesn't appear to be true.

There are right wings in Europe that carry very strong albeit slightly different conservative beliefs.

In any society, there will be conservative views and liberal ones. It just seems like there is a difference in how those beliefs are exercised. Extremism in one side just brings extremism to the other side.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#248

Post by adjkant »

zepto wrote: post #242
adjkant wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's going to be a wash, or prices wouldn't fall. You're right that this will decrease tax bases, so I guess the real question is "by how much?". Only time will tell what that looks like, but I think that will lead more to rebudgeting/allocating than just objective negative losses. Your specific examples are interesting though, as NYC's population explicitly rejected Amazon's HQ2 with public backlash. N…

It’s also worth noting that this has happened before in SF multiple times, to varying degrees, and the result has generally been an invigoration of culture in one way or another.

Can you elaborate on that? I can't say I'm an SF history expert, but I've never heard of those shifts so I'm truly curious what you're referring to.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#249

Post by 01100011 »

Has anyone ever looked at the curves for the cost of public services vs the cost of living in a city? What I'm getting at is that if the tech workers flee SF and are replaced by average income earners and lower property values, will SF be more or less able to provide the basic city services it is currently strugging with?

I suspect that the cost of providing basic services rises faster than CoL of an area, just by looking at CA as a whole. Setting aside the possibility of bad management, it seems that CA is incapable of providing basic services(reliable electricity, well maintained roads, water, sewer, housing, etc) despite being the 5th largest economy on the planet. Is CA a victim of its success?

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#250

Post by zepto »

Nursie wrote: post #137
tjr225 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture and things to do include a lot more than just networking and museums. One example for instance is the vast amount of unique natural beauty surrounding the Bay Area. Even rural places that have that are also expensive- though admittedly not nearly as much so. This is generally reflected in salary though.

> One example for instance is the vast amount of unique natural beauty surrounding the Bay Area. But that's not what you move to most cities for. SF may be exceptional in having that stuff as well , but for most cities, if you lock down the social/cultural aspects, then the natural beauty is elsewhere.

It’s a big reason why people move to the Bay Area over other cities.
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