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Web by Google (TM)

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321–330 of 496 posts

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#321
This article’s core premises are somewhat nonsensical.

1. Lack of native distributed search led to Google’s monopoly.

“The Web’s orignal architects were off base on hyperlinks; it turns out people just want to skip right to the answer they’re looking for.”

This doesn’t make any sense. Google’s entire early innovation was to use hyperlinks as an indicator of popularity and thus a proxy metric for veracity, and PageRank was born.

Original attempts at distributed search based on other metrics like text analysis were tried (Webcrawler, AltaVista which was used by Yahoo, Inktomi which was used by Lycos, HotBot, etc) but didn’t produce better results, and Google eventually grew to #1 by 2004 (6 years after intro).

Google could not have existed without the hyperlink. The reason it has a monopoly today is largely due to investment cycles and intellectual property law: after the dot com bust, there wasn’t exactly an appetite to build new search engines given PageRank was patented and would need to be licensed (it expired in 2019).

This monopoly doesn’t matter as much: generic search engine use has been declining for years in favour of other approaches to finding content (social media, syndication, domain specific aggregators, etc).

Decentralized Index/search (not just distributed but truly decentralized) remains an open research problem. it may be possible to improve and deploy with the right incentives and investment, but it’s ludicrous to think this was possible in 1992-1998.

2. Lack of native payments led to advertising to take off.

This has no factual basis: CGI-bin scripts to purchase things with HTTP POST calls existed as early as 1993. Amazon and eBay launched in 1995. PayPal started when Google did, in 1998.

More importantly, most viewed the web as another visual media like Television, which was ad-driven. People generally didn’t like paying for things that felt free, like information, or music, or movies.

But again, the Ad Words monopoly remains tenuous. Facebook has been steamrolling it in growth and will eventually eclipse it. We are also seeing a lot more willingness for people to pay for content to avoid ads.

3. “poor native video support (it is hyper_text_ after all)”

It was called hypermedia widely by around 1995 when images and audio (Real Networks in particular) took off, there just wasn’t the processing power, bandwidth, or compression algorithms available to make this real until 1998 when MP4 came out.

Google’s early attempt at video, Google Videos, was a market failure. They had to buy YouTube which (most importantly) made it easy to publish videos compared to others, but it took many years for it to reach #1.

And that position too is threatened between Facebook, Instagram, Netflix, etc.

In summary, Google is #1 in a number of markets due to a combination of smart business moves, smart technology, being an early player, and the business/investment climate at key inflection points of the industry. There are a large number of competitive pressures against Google that make this lead tenuous. Google is as vulnerable as AOL or Microsoft were in the late 90s, when they were thought to be unassailable.

As for the health of the web, let’s remember that regardless of all the claims of the death of the web, whether native mobile, or WebSockets, or walled gardens, GraphQL, or single page apps or accelerators like Amp (which had to change offer direct hyperlink access due to complaints), the web remains entrenched, omnipresent, and has no clear replacement.

This matters because the core architecture of the web: URLs, HTTP, MIME, and (to a somewhat shrinking extent) HTML remains the foundational glue that holds all this mess of media and technology together, and is fundamentally about enabling decentralization. URLs still are the main way that native mobile apps integrate with the network. HTML is still the default fallback UI. HTTP is still the primary application protocol by far.

All of this was the design intent of the architecture of the Web: to last decades, regardless of how the origin servers or user agents evolved. It’s an architecture ripe for innovation to make decentralized alternatives to today’s incumbents.

To paraphrase John Lennon, centralization is over, if you want it.

But this requires the experience to be actually better for users, and not just in an “eat your vegetables / don’t give your privacy away” manner. Starting a new venture to take this on requires a combination of investment, insight, and commitment that’s not easy to assemble. But it can and probably will happen, relative to legislation or very possible social catastrophes that entrench the current players longer than needed.

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if mobile Safari domination is partly because iOS apps themselves use "Safari" when displaying webpages. If I tap an article using the Octal HN app, it opens in an internal "browser view" that is just an instance of Safari.

Even Chrome on iOS uses safari(webkit). There is no competition allowed on iOS, and that really sucks considering how terrible Safari is.

(as a web developer)

As a user Safari is fantastic and basically the whole reason I even own an iPhone. It’s just stupidly faster than Chrome on any Android flagship.

A world where there’s “choice” of browsers on every platform in practice just cements Chrome as the web because if you didn’t have to develop for Safari nobody would. On every other platform it’s “have bug-for-bug compatibility with Chrome or die.”

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#324
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I work for Google, but not on Chrome or Search. There's plenty of worry to go around. I would like to put aside the (very understandable) fear about Google for a second because I think the GP makes a good point. My parents used to use the open web, but have also more or less exclusively started to use Facebook to "surf the web" and get all of their information. The 2016 election was a joke, my mother woul…

Nice of you to speak out. If I were working at Google I'd be more worried about Facebook too. Because your paycheck more or less depends on you being able to tell yourself that you are working for 'the good guys'. But in my book both are equally rotten, it's just that this thread is about Google, not about Facebook and that makes these clear attempts at deflection. Google does plenty to spread misinformation as well,…

> Youtube is a sewer giving outright conspiracy nutcases a platform, they continuously promote Breitbart, infowars and other despicable websites

Well, glad you're not in charge, then. If these publications really are crackpots then surely people will stop reading them? Freedom of speech and all that.

Disclosure: Googler.

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#325
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that all sorts of entities employ people to do PR on internet forums, and redirecting and deflecting is a crucial part of their tactics. Not saying that this is happening here, but forums need to be resilent and really focus hard on the issue at hand or be completely played by the professionals.

They don't need to be so Machiavellian. This forum is filled with Google and Facebook engineers. Some of them sincerely don't see anything bad in their companies. Others probably want to protect their stock options.

"It's impossible to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." - Mencken

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#326
post #303

Asking a rhetorical and irritating question - but one which web nerds need to be much better at answering: why, exactly does it matter? Don't get me wrong, I'm totally uncomfortable with a monopoly of this scale; I'm a Firefox user, a Pihole user, a non-FB user. But when people (non nerds) ask me why, it's hard to answer. They're all happy enough: Chrome is fast, AMP is faster, they get to find out the stuff they wan…

Having any infrastructure controlled by a publicly traded corporation has enormous historical precedent to lead to the dissolution of that infrastructure for shareholder profit.

Once Google feels comfortable with doing so not allowing arbitrary routing in Chrome will be on the table to control what websites people visit. The only things stopping that is a feeble threat of state intervention or the threat of competition in the browser space reclaiming market share as a result.

They can, and probably will, take Chrome wholly proprietary at some point. Microsoft kowtowing to their engine is in their favor for now, but long term its in their business interests that Microsoft not have a browser anymore. That they present Chrome as the only option to users.

We can mire in the details of what a browser is, but for 99% of people Chrome is a program you run that shows you the stuff you want. The http, html, etc underpinnings are totally irrelevant. Chrome could be doing anything as long as it were showing the content the user of it expects. Google has already done this in the past with things like SPDY. I'm sure standards realize this - its why http/2 was a thing after all - that at this point if Google creates a new protocol it is de-facto required to become a standard because that is the only way for alternative browsers to keep pace with Chrome.

As such Google gets to dictate the future of hypertext. Not the users of the platform, not standards bodies formed to collaborate, the board of directors of a publicly traded US company.

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#327
post #255
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I decided to take a break from FB for a few weeks as it was feeling addictive. (Still on Messenger and IG so I'm not a purist.) I quickly found that many of my local business have an online presence only on Facebook. No web site, no freebie aggregator type thing, nothing, just FB. This in a major European city. It makes me wonder if it might be useful, as a public service, to have some kind of free business listing t…

> It makes me wonder if it might be useful, as a public service, to have some kind of free business listing that (with your permission) automatically duplicates what you put on Facebook, just to encourage people to at least be discoverable outside that walled garden. You know that Facebook would immediately start either offering incentives to keep all your data in the walled garden, or spreading FUD about the duplica…

They can also remove that integration any moment they like, by revoking an app ID. Very likely they'll be able to find a paragraph in their developer program T&C they can claim was violated by GP.

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#328
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an end-user, AMP sites load faster and with less clutter. The only downside is a clunky URL, but I rarely care about that. AMP improved my mobile search experience. The main AMP concerns seem philosophical, which I don't think OP was asking about.

And this is the problem for anyone outside of the CompSci field. To those it looks like URL non-sense but it's rooted far deeper then that. This isn't philosophical. By choosing to use AMP, you are ultimately choosing to destroy the internet. You're granting the power of one company to run and control what you visit, do, use. Your surrendering your data for them to make money off to use and abuse. Your supporting the…

Bing integrates with AMP and serves pages from their own AMP cache as well. Maybe DuckDuckGo doesn't, but that's on them. Your content is absolutely not at the mercy of the one search engine unless you decide G is the only search engine that exists.

The search engine does serve your page from a CDN (for free, by the way) that they own, but don't forget it's their perogative to even rank you at all. They are a private company, not a public utility.

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TikTok gonna change the world.

How is TikTok any different than Vine or Meerkat or periscope or any other video/SnapFaceTwitter toy? Do people really have that short of a memory?

There's a cultural difference and a technological difference. The cultural difference is that TikTok is a more aspirational platform. It isn't just for short gags. People use TikTok hoping to get famous for their singalongs or whatever else they use the platform for. Even if they don't really believe they'll become famous, there's something thrilling about the performance to them (this enhances the voyeuristic experience for the target audience). Vine was not as performative. It was like a short format America's Funniest Home Videos.

The technological difference, which may be underappreciated, is the AI/ML enabled discovery feed. TikTok learns what you like very quickly as you mindlessly scroll through infinite reels of content.

Re: Web by Google (TM)

#330
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to see that there are efforts but until they can roll it out as a core feature with prompts/nudges it's not going to cut it and I'm not entirely sure they have the market/mind share to pull it off these days. Pateron came out in 2013 and has strong community/network effects now, YouTube Red/Spotify also address much the same problem. The current state of affairs is like their idiotic mobile 6 full years after th…

If they rolled out a payment option for third-party sites as a core feature with prompts and nudges, do you really think the reception would be positive? I expect the comment threads would be full of people telling Firefox to work on being the best browser they can, and not getting in people's way with a payment system that "nobody asked for".

It can still be optional? That I use Firefox daily but had no clue this functionality existed says something...
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