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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

nature.com

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Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#61

Post by SubiculumCode »

alicemaz wrote: post #10
SubiculumCode wrote: post #4

This is my 2020 paper in a similar vein. We found attenuated sex differences in amygdala resting-state connectivity between boys and girls with autism, but robust sex differences in amygdala connectivity in typically developing boys and girls. This pattern was observed using both univariate and multivariate analytical approaches, consistent with gender incoherence hypothesis, which stands in contrast with extreme mal…

oh interesting. I've had a pet theory for awhile now re: trans/autism comorbidity that they're better thought of as symptoms (among others! op's link notes higher incidence of every surveyed mental disorder) of some underlying brain abnormality, rather than being tangled up in some causal relationship with each other. had not heard of gender incoherence theory before

The point in which autism moves from "neuro-diversity" to "disorder that affects quality of life" is a difficult and controversial discussion. In general we try to use sensitive language, and respect the spectrum.

Many of the genes that control brain development are also linked to sex differentiation, and so it not surprising to me that in the presence of greater number of mutations (technical term) in these genes, the more sexual development will be differentially regulated, and will follow a different trajectory. I suspect, but do not know how to model, that this would tend to result in less sexual differentiation, making the binary male/female extreme phenotypes less likely in ASD.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#62

Post by [deleted] »

trans-stealth wrote: post #31
hh3k0 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

> if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and pretend we hear them too. Transgender people have existed in some form for a long time, the medicalization of it only started in the late 19th + early 20th century. The difference I see between the two is that there isn't a known 'fix' for gender dysphoria besides transition. I don't think any trans p…

[deleted]

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#63

Post by XorNot »

hh3k0 wrote: post #18
vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

People making claims like that generally no nothing of the procedure by which mental health issues are diagnosed - which is to say, mental health treatment is about addressing issues which are negatively affecting someone's quality of life, until they are not. This is the same reason you can't just go through the DSM V and ascribe mental health conditions to people on TV or in the media or whatnot - it doesn't work that way.

People who hear voices don't have a problem because they hear voices, they have a problem because in general schizophrenia presents those voices as hostile and aggressive towards the person. People who hear voices that are positive or helpful (which is not uncommon, though it seems to be less common in Western culture socialized people) don't have a problem, probably don't even need treatment if they do not cause any distress.

That trans-people live happier lives after transitioning means that the treatment they receive (hormones,gender reassignment surgery, remembering that all of those are quite optional) is completely adequate.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#64

Post by cl0rkster »

trans-stealth wrote: post #38

One other correlation I have seen is "intelligence" trans person. It's very weird how many absurdly smart people happen to be trans. It plays into the idea that mental illness correlates with IQ.

Being "mentally ill" and having the specifics of that diagnosis changed every time the DSM does due to social pressure (from homosexual/bipolar DSM 4 to schizo in DSM 5), I honestly think "mentally ill" has just become another loaded term. Most "menatlly ill" people are simply people who have used the faculties that have to choose to be abnormal. The reasons for that non-conformist decision are varied, but are rarely irrational. Generally, I've found that any non-conformist person, regardless the category of such they've been assigned, has a unique and valuable perspective at some level if you just get to know them. Sadly, that's rare in an age where everything new is threatening and everyone I don't understand is the boogey man. Protected groups do the same villification to those who practice societal norms. A genuine smile and a ready heart for other people that also bleed red and feel more pain than life should ever have allowed is probably a better start than pissing matches over who is right and who is evil.

TLDR - non-conformists are almost always interesting and brilliant in some sense, but they generally lack the ability to reach within the Overton window and effect change.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#65

Post by trianglem »

anchpop wrote: post #19
empthought wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the distinguishing characteristic of someone who is gender fluid vs. someone who is not?

There isn't one, besides them identifying as genderfluid. Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think this makes the terms slightly less useful but it is very important to some people that they're used this way

>Same as any other gender identity

Stop right there. Man and woman are biological constructs. You don’t get to identify as one or the other.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#66

Post by trianglem »

Kaze404 wrote: post #49
scott31 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think there are some distinguishing characteristics for someone who is male vs someone who is female.

"Male" and "female" aren't genders.

Really the problem is gender isn’t.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#67

Post by valenciarose »

lemonberry wrote: post #16
Pfhreak wrote: post #7

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

It’s not sound and ultimately it’s based in the grief of people who believe they have somehow lost their child (or spouse, or sibling) because they transitioned. I don’t want to minimize the pain of people who have this mindset, no matter how destructive it is. Their sense of loss is genuine and it drives them to the same level of commitment that you see from parents who lose a child to a drunk driver. But, while the pain is real, the loss is either not real or is self-inflicted. Trans people leave the lives of people who won’t let them be themselves, but we don’t stop loving our family because we’re trans.

More people are transitioning, at all ages. More of the people who do so are visible, because of modest reductions in stigma and because there’s no longer a requirement that we disappear and cut all ties (the medical establishment used to require this). Your typical 40-50 year old parent has no idea how many of the people they went to High School and College with are trans, because they were hidden. In much the same way people had no idea how many people were gay. So this looks like an explosive change. I do expect we will see much less late transition (later than early adulthood), because more of those trans people will transition earlier.

So, why are more people transitioning? Because it’s possible and they understand it to be possible, not because there are more people who are trans. This is why it’s happening across all ages. I am a late transitioner. I started to transition as soon as I understood three things: that being trans and transitioning was a real thing, that I would not destroy my life by doing so, and that trans people can live happy fulfilled lives.

What about desistance? Some small percentage of people who transition decide that it wasn’t right for them. Most of them because of oppression, but some because it doesn’t work for them. This is much smaller than the set of people who regret that they didn’t transition, or that they waited so long to do so. It’s lower than the rate of regret for any elective surgery. There is some risk that non-binary kids who emphatically reject their assigned sex at birth are getting social pressure to conform to the other end of the binary. The pressure to be not trans at all is still very high. High enough that I don’t worry about cis kids being pressured into transition.

And there are many trans people who don’t need or want to transition, who find sufficient expression or acknowledgement in other ways. They aren’t less trans, you just don’t know they are.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#68

Post by trianglem »

jmcgough wrote: post #20

My mother's family is all autistic engineers. I and two of my cousins transitioned as teenagers, so I've had my own theories about this for years.

You shouldn’t be allowed to use transitioned unless there is literal gene replacement happening.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#69

Post by [deleted] »

trans-stealth wrote: post #54
timwaagh wrote: post #45

trans people, might reasonably be described as people "whose attempts to make friends are odd and typically unsuccessful". Since that phrase got ripped straight off the dsm diagnostic criteria for autism on https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnosis-criteria-dsm-5 , it should not be any surprise whatsoever that these are correlated (same as with any other category of significantly 'odd' people).

>trans people, might reasonably be described as people "whose attempts to make friends are odd and typically unsuccessful". Is this a quote from the article? I can't seem to find it. That is very much not the case in my opinion. Many trans people are social and have both cis (non-trans) and trans friends.

[deleted]

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#70

Post by School-Cotton »

anchpop wrote: post #19
empthought wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the distinguishing characteristic of someone who is gender fluid vs. someone who is not?

There isn't one, besides them identifying as genderfluid. Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think this makes the terms slightly less useful but it is very important to some people that they're used this way

It’s not clear to me what this means. I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. I’ve never told anyone “I’m a man”. But everyone somehow concludes that I’m a man.

What does it mean to “identify as” something?

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