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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

nature.com

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Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#51

Post by zaksoup »

leephillips wrote: post #42
zaksoup wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if I was unclear. I did not mean to imply any specific motivation of yours . That being said, the example you used is a dog whistle commonly used by folks whose motivations I have no problem imagining, and it is used to perpetrate violence towards trans people. Furthermore, as I feel quite certain that, given your lack of evidence, you are not right, the consequences I "imagine" are not stemming from you being…

So what do you think it is, probably? A mass mutation? Something in the water?

This doesn't seem like a productive line of questioning. If you have research that shows what you're trying to claim is happening I'd be happy to read it and share my thoughts on it.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#52

Post by jcims »

trans-stealth wrote: post #46
jcims wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". The thing i worry about is that folks that go through all of the physical and emotional (and financial) stress of transitioning only to find that it doesn’t soothe the pain are likely to perceive a social pressure to keep a lid on it. The current trend of acceptance is obviously good but it seems likely our approach to tre…

> The thing i worry about is that folks that go through all of the physical and emotional (and financial) stress of transitioning only to find that it doesn’t soothe the pain are likely to perceive a social pressure to keep a lid on it. Nope, "de-transitioners" are very welcome in the trans community, to tell their story, to hang out, to help others. There's absolutely nothing that should force them to not speak out…

That’s great to hear, thank you.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#53

Post by Nickste »

zaksoup wrote: post #35
leephillips wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your objections are all from imagined motivation (“dog whistle”) or from imagined consequences of my being right. These are both informal fallacies, and not legitimate forms of argumentation. Unless you believe that the current unprecedented epidemic of adolescent girls deciding that they are trans has an organic origin, somebody is convincing them of this. My objections to the study are logical objections. Since the…

Sorry if I was unclear. I did not mean to imply any specific motivation of yours . That being said, the example you used is a dog whistle commonly used by folks whose motivations I have no problem imagining, and it is used to perpetrate violence towards trans people. Furthermore, as I feel quite certain that, given your lack of evidence, you are not right, the consequences I "imagine" are not stemming from you being…

[flagged]

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#54

Post by trans-stealth »

timwaagh wrote: post #45

trans people, might reasonably be described as people "whose attempts to make friends are odd and typically unsuccessful". Since that phrase got ripped straight off the dsm diagnostic criteria for autism on https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnosis-criteria-dsm-5 , it should not be any surprise whatsoever that these are correlated (same as with any other category of significantly 'odd' people).

>trans people, might reasonably be described as people "whose attempts to make friends are odd and typically unsuccessful".

Is this a quote from the article? I can't seem to find it.

That is very much not the case in my opinion. Many trans people are social and have both cis (non-trans) and trans friends.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#55

Post by trans-stealth »

zaksoup wrote: post #29
neonate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.

I'm not the OC but many of my friends and peers are trans and I find "agender" to be the most useful descriptor to myself. One thing I've noted is that once you start to identify the ways in which gender is fundamentally a social construct the link with autistic/neurodivergent folks makes much more sense. Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively na…

That pretty much describes my relationship with gender.

I was undiagnosed as a kid, gender was confusing, different standards were confusing. I just didn't care, among other reasons, I decided to transition.

Very happy, but still have an idea of how I would navigate things different... but that's life, right?

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#56

Post by empthought »

Kaze404 wrote: post #49
scott31 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think there are some distinguishing characteristics for someone who is male vs someone who is female.

"Male" and "female" aren't genders.

Neither is “gender fluid,” though, is it?

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#57

Post by jmcgough »

neonate wrote: post #22
jmcgough wrote: post #20

My mother's family is all autistic engineers. I and two of my cousins transitioned as teenagers, so I've had my own theories about this for years.

I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point.

But as for unresearched hunches...

There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming.

I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in the neurodiverse community, and many of us feel uncomfortable with expectations placed on us around gender roles and sexuality. So I'm curious how much is a causal relationship, and how much of it is a willingness to reject societal expectations that seem irrational. I value my freedom a lot, and the expectations placed on me when I lived as a boy felt stifling and exhausting.

I can only speak to my personal experiences, and I don't believe in policing peoples' decisions to transition, but I have strong memories from as early as five of wanting to be a girl. I was very sensitive as a child. Typical autism-spectrum stuff like sensitivity to sounds, lights, and pain, but also an intense emotional empathy - I was a huge crybaby until my teens, and never felt like I fit in with guys my age or shared many interests with them. So when I found out that transitioning was an option, I pushed hard for it. It's possible that in today's age of greater gender freedoms I wouldn't have had as much reason to transition. But I just don't identify with the male experience at all, and have no desire to see my body masculinize more and more as I age. Also, I can wear so much more colorful and expressive clothes now :)

I think some people transition because they identify very strongly as the other gender, and others (particularly on the autism spectrum) identify outside of the gender binary, so they transition to better express that identity.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#58

Post by will4274 »

zaksoup wrote: post #51
leephillips wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you think it is, probably? A mass mutation? Something in the water?

This doesn't seem like a productive line of questioning. If you have research that shows what you're trying to claim is happening I'd be happy to read it and share my thoughts on it.

I mean, he's clearing referring to the book by Abigail Shrier which has made all sorts of media buzz, including being banned some places and some anti censorship shouts from the right. Is the claim in the book that groups of young women transition in clusters wrong? Most of the objections I've heard to the book haven't made that argument, so I have just assumed the book was correct on that point.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#59

Post by grogenaut »

Kaze404 wrote: post #49
scott31 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think there are some distinguishing characteristics for someone who is male vs someone who is female.

"Male" and "female" aren't genders.

It would be helpful if you chose to educate by linking to the definitions you are using instead of just chastising for someone not knowing the terminology you are using. The Wikipedia article for gender mentions that the terms sex and gender for biological gender/sex have flip flopped multiple times in the last 30 years.

HN is supposed to be a place where people learn, not an anger pit like the rest of the web.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#60

Post by vmception »

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #50
vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothing and unlocks the productiveness of an additional population in society. This seems like a pretty broad generalization. Forget the semantic fact that by definition, accommodating something takes effort. Some people's worldviews may not account for gender identity being expressed this way. Whether you agree or disagree with the…

if hyperbole doesn't match your worldview of being pedantic then we can rephrase: it is an extremely low effort patch that has a net positive for society. The net positive is empowering productive people in the workforce. People that were otherwise marginalized, or uncomfortable enough to be suicidal. A prerequisite to this worldview is that we don't want them to go away or be dead, which seems to underlie some people's perspective.
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