Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals • Hacker News Board

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#31

Post by trans-stealth » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:15 AM UTC

hh3k0 wrote: post #18

vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

> if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and pretend we hear them too.

Transgender people have existed in some form for a long time, the medicalization of it only started in the late 19th + early 20th century.

The difference I see between the two is that there isn't a known 'fix' for gender dysphoria besides transition. I don't think any trans person would protest to never having to go through transition... but they definitely don't advocate for extermination of trans people either.

There are plausible biological causes for being transgender that are parallel but not equal to intersex issues.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#32

Post by jauer » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:16 AM UTC

wozzeck wrote: post #2

Adding another 2020 study that observes the autism / transgender overlap: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175094671... Interestingly enough, the correlation is observed to a greater extent with trans men (though not in all studies).

> observed to a greater extent with trans men

I wonder if that's a result of autism being under-diagnosed in women (and that under-diagnosis carrying over to trans women).

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#33

Post by zaksoup » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:17 AM UTC

hh3k0 wrote: post #18

vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

> "If we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to acknowledge the voices they hear and pretend we hear them too."

This is easy to dismiss by pointing to evidence based treatment practices. The treatment which is most effective at reducing suicide rates among people experiencing gender dysphoria is gender affirming care [0]. I doubt it is the case that the treatment that is most effective at helping folks experiencing schizophrenia is "acknowledging the voices" (not to mention as sibling commenters have that this is a gross caricature of schizophrenia in the first place).

It's extremely strange to me that we pretend like gender affirming care is "everybody pretending" and not a well studied and evidence based set of treatments that has been shown to be effective.

[0] https://www.thetrevorproject.org/2020/01/29/research-brief-g...

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#34

Post by leephillips » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:20 AM UTC

lemonberry wrote: post #16

Pfhreak wrote: post #7

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

This interview is well worth the time.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#35

Post by zaksoup » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:20 AM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #30

zaksoup wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've flagged this comment but I also feel the need to write a response because this kind of uncritical dog-whistle is something that actively contributes to violence against trans people. There's no evidence to suggest that trans folks encourage anybody, including autistic folks, to "believe that they're trans." However, there is myriad evidence that fear of trans folks "converting" other people is one of the motivat…

Your objections are all from imagined motivation (“dog whistle”) or from imagined consequences of my being right. These are both informal fallacies, and not legitimate forms of argumentation. Unless you believe that the current unprecedented epidemic of adolescent girls deciding that they are trans has an organic origin, somebody is convincing them of this. My objections to the study are logical objections. Since the…

Sorry if I was unclear. I did not mean to imply any specific motivation of yours. That being said, the example you used is a dog whistle commonly used by folks whose motivations I have no problem imagining, and it is used to perpetrate violence towards trans people.

Furthermore, as I feel quite certain that, given your lack of evidence, you are not right, the consequences I "imagine" are not stemming from you being right or wrong but from folks willing to do violence against trans folks believing you are right and using that believe to justify their violence.

If you believe that the so-called epidemic of adolescents coming out as trans has an in-organic origin you're welcome to present the evidence of that. I stand by my statement that there is none.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#36

Post by jcims » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:21 AM UTC

hh3k0 wrote: post #18

vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

> I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help".

The thing i worry about is that folks that go through all of the physical and emotional (and financial) stress of transitioning only to find that it doesn’t soothe the pain are likely to perceive a social pressure to keep a lid on it.

The current trend of acceptance is obviously good but it seems likely our approach to treatment will evolve over time.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#37

Post by dx87 » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:22 AM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #26

lemonberry wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

It don’t think it should be part of the conversation because it seems transparently little more than culture war scapegoating for an audience hungry for a moral panic. If you want a more considered text for a general audience, I’d recommend Brynn Tanehill’s, “Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Trans (But Were Afraid to Ask).” Also useful is this point-by-point, sourced rebuttal to the misinformation Rogan repea…

The part of the rebuttal about puberty blockers being 100% reversible seems outdated. The NHS recently said that there isn't enough information about puberty blockers to say for certain that there are no long-term side effects from their use.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#38

Post by trans-stealth » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:22 AM UTC

One other correlation I have seen is "intelligence" trans person.

It's very weird how many absurdly smart people happen to be trans. It plays into the idea that mental illness correlates with IQ.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#39

Post by 8note » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:22 AM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #30

zaksoup wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've flagged this comment but I also feel the need to write a response because this kind of uncritical dog-whistle is something that actively contributes to violence against trans people. There's no evidence to suggest that trans folks encourage anybody, including autistic folks, to "believe that they're trans." However, there is myriad evidence that fear of trans folks "converting" other people is one of the motivat…

Your objections are all from imagined motivation (“dog whistle”) or from imagined consequences of my being right. These are both informal fallacies, and not legitimate forms of argumentation. Unless you believe that the current unprecedented epidemic of adolescent girls deciding that they are trans has an organic origin, somebody is convincing them of this. My objections to the study are logical objections. Since the…

Epidemic implies some kind of disease no?

Telling people they're sick for existing is certainly unkindness

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#40

Post by wozzeck » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

jauer wrote: post #32

wozzeck wrote: post #2

Adding another 2020 study that observes the autism / transgender overlap: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175094671... Interestingly enough, the correlation is observed to a greater extent with trans men (though not in all studies).

> observed to a greater extent with trans men I wonder if that's a result of autism being under-diagnosed in women (and that under-diagnosis carrying over to trans women).

I would be surprised if that carried over to trans women, i.e. people assigned male at birth, especially if most are diagnosed as children (and thus prior to transitioning, in most cases).