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I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

quirksmode.org

231–240 of 245 posts

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#231
post #4

Rather sad the two proposals here are either "giant browser vendors should pay for it" or "independent web developers should pay for it." It's one thing for developers to pay for things that will develop their independent careers, but MDN is a reference as much as it is a learning resource; it's something developers constantly use at their jobs. Their employers , big or small, should be the ones paying for it. Of cou…

> Their employers, big or small, should be the ones paying for it.

The people providing the service should get paid. Who bears the cost in the end, and whose credit card gets billed, are just implementation details. Choices for employers and employees to make among themselves. The provider doesn't care. The provider gets paid.

Employees will like to read that employers should pay, because they don't want to pay. Nobody likes to pay, including employers. But in the end, employers pay employees for value delivered. If that value includes the benefit of a service that costs money, it's part of value delivered.

Maybe the employee pays and the employer reimburses. Maybe the employer pays and the employee's pay, benefits, or expenses allowance gets docked accordingly. Maybe the employee and the employer split the cost somehow. Maybe the employee bears the cost entirely, so employees who can do without the service have financial incentive to do so.

It's not up to the provider to figure this out or negotiate it. If diners want to argue about who pays how much of the tab, the restaurant still gets paid. If tenants want to argue about who pays how much of the rent, the landlord still gets paid. In the USA, auto mechanics usually own their own tools, while in Germany, garages usually provide them. Either way, the toolmakers get paid. They don't wait to get paid until employee and employer figure it all out.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The deal with Google just got renewed well before the lay-off's, despite the empty words about global pandemic being a reason, there is no major impact on their revenue ( or Google's for that matter). I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly sure that "our revenues stayed the same between 2018-2023” would be seen as a failure in most companies. Not only do costs rise every year, employment decisions are made assuming it wi…

Mozilla is not any company. For almost any non-profit maintaining their new donations for the same level for 5 years would be considered good performance. Even in most aggressive startups maintaining revenues at $400-500 Million level is likely to cause first management change and rarely lay-offs of 25% of the workforce. Even if that was the reason, clearly mangement have been unable and unlikely to that kind of grow…

>For almost any non-profit maintaining their new donations for the same level for 5 years would be considered good performance

Donations are barely a factor here, it is not a meaningful part of their revenue.

As you say, one year of steady revenue would cause a significant shakeup in a company. By year three, things would look fairly dire. Mozilla has already tried a number of other options, and are in the middle of a management change. Eventually this becomes the only choice

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#233
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like we should get to a point where it's common for companies to give their employees a donation budget to spend on whatever they see fit.

You mean a salary?

A salary is something you trade for your work, i.e. it's for you to spend as you see fit. This budget would be for the employer to spend, but for the employee to determine how it would be best spent to benefit the employer. It's not a job perk, and not to the benefit of the employee.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#234
I'd suggest that successful monetization strategy has already been accomplished at w3schools. Is it pretty? No. How about Stackoverflow? Prettier and that seems to work ok too.

Looks like MDN was on mediawiki at some point. It worked fine then too.

Who pays for Wikipedia? Who pays for NPR? People do use fundraisers from time to time.

Where are all the Universities in this? Should they have a roll in any of this? Seems like all the Ivy League places could donate? Maybe they already do.

I suggest that if the management team at Mozilla were actually good at their jobs maybe MDN would already me profitable. I'd also suggest that it's in browser manufacturer's interest to provide documentation. If MDN disappears something will fill that void. Maybe it's time for a change.

If all else fails, just slap everything into a man page.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#235
post #4

Rather sad the two proposals here are either "giant browser vendors should pay for it" or "independent web developers should pay for it." It's one thing for developers to pay for things that will develop their independent careers, but MDN is a reference as much as it is a learning resource; it's something developers constantly use at their jobs. Their employers , big or small, should be the ones paying for it. Of cou…

> Their employers , big or small, should be the ones paying for it. The people providing the service should get paid. Who bears the cost in the end, and whose credit card gets billed, are just implementation details. Choices for employers and employees to make among themselves. The provider doesn't care. The provider gets paid. Employees will like to read that employers should pay, because they don't want to pay. Nob…

Employees paying might make sense if the employees were paid on some sort of commission basis. Then it’s in the employees personal interest to find ways to make themselves more efficient so as to maximize their own income. But for a salaried employee, there is not enough incentive for them to pay out of their own pockets.

Basically the statement you made that employees are paid based on value delivered is not really accurate in most cases.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#236
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean a salary?

A salary is something you trade for your work, i.e. it's for you to spend as you see fit. This budget would be for the employer to spend, but for the employee to determine how it would be best spent to benefit the employer. It's not a job perk, and not to the benefit of the employee.

I very much enjoy the way you speak about this. Workers determining resource allocation is classical socialism, so the politics would derail the idea in many places. If no one ever points that out though, and you focus on a voucher system rather than ownership, it is actually capitalist but still trying to get at the gains of distributed leadership.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#237
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree where you're coming from however, in the case of Mozilla I believe that the reference is relevant. If you see that the company is producing a good product that you're donating to support. Would the "customers" (supporters) want to support the time and cost associated with kicking out the CEO over personal+(believed to be) private activities? (Context: Brandon Eich donated 1k of his personal money t…

No one ever claimed hostile work environment. Where'd you get that? The L.A. Times published the CA state database of political donations >= $100 in size, activists searched it for known names. That was in 2012.

Hey Brenden!

I mentioned this before and the claims were that you lost the "trust of the employees" infering that the work environment wasn't feasible. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23681475

I think for a private action that's insane. But oh well.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#239

One thing which really resonated: "But will you do the boring but necessary browser testing to figure out if what you’re describing is always true, or just most of the time? And will you repeat that testing once new versions have come out? Will you go through related pages..." This. A thousand times this. The problem for me isn't the quantity of information any more, it's the quality. 10-15 years ago if you hit an ev…

> The problem for me isn't the quantity of information any more, it's the quality. 10-15 years ago if you hit an even slightly esoteric problem you'd bottom out a search pretty quickly and be on your own.

It's not just technical information either. The internet has done this to everything. In comparison, the old mainstream media seemed to be more "truthful", in some sense. It is more truthful when it came to hard, citable facts. Most things the MSM offered as facts had cites, and turned out to be accurate. In comparison, the Internet swims in bullshit. It ranges from opinion dressed up as fact to outright lies told by trolls, and then and onto conspiracy theories from people living in some alternate Universe. Worst, since these people believe (probably correctly) that the louder they yell, the more they are likely to convince the internet seems to be mostly this stuff (outposts like Wikipedia being an exception).

And yet, I prefer this situation to what the mainstream media offered. The MSM suffered from two defects. Firstly, they were very prone to repeating accepted meme's as fact, over and over again, as if there were no competing theories. The most recent example masks where the MSM was flooded with the prevailing western expert opinion that masks had no effect. Back in the day, before the internet, I would have just accepted that. There was no easy way (where easy is spend 1/2 an hour entering search terms, clicking and reading) to fact check, so how could you do otherwise?

The second thing journalists are bloody hopeless at distilling and summarising the truth from an expert. Before the internet you rarely had an opportunity to see it in action. I had been told by elders repeatedly that if you see a story in the media about an event you attended or place you know well, you won't recognise it. That happened to me once too - it was a report about the commonwealth games in Time magazine. It was exactly as predicted - utterly unrecognisable. But it only happened once, and the lesson faded. Then the internet came along and you would read a MSM report, then happen on the comments of someone there or read the expert's own words, and it was like "wtf?". Now I find myself treating the output of journalists with suspicion, avoiding it where possible.

Much later it dawned on me why it was like this. The journalists main task, the one their employers judged them on and remunerated them on accordingly, had nothing to do with how accurately they reported the facts. It was whether you came back for more; bought tomorrow's paper, switched on the TV news; the only relevance of the truth to that endeavour is whether sticking to it brings readers or not. The combination of repeating established memes without question, the overarching drive to deliver addictive brain candy rather than information, and the difficulty of fact checking made the output of the MSM a truly insipid product.

So yeah, the Internet is swimming in endless repeats of bullshit and lies, but unlike the old MSM floating in that torrent of crap are the actual facts. You just have to put in the work to find them. And once you figure out how to do it, it's not even that much work. Knowing about sites like MDN, which is a reliable, complete, and up-to-date source of information is one of these tricks. For those of us who like our facts neat, being able to go straight to the MDN saves us literally hours of time in shifting through torrents of bullshit, or god-help us reading yards of inscrutable standards in order to find the thing we need to know. Loss of the MDN would be a real disaster in the economic sense - it would cost a lot of people a huge amount of money and time.

Still, as Wikipedia, and stack overflow demonstrate, it's possible to crowd source that style of site. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#240
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean a salary?

A salary is something you trade for your work, i.e. it's for you to spend as you see fit. This budget would be for the employer to spend, but for the employee to determine how it would be best spent to benefit the employer. It's not a job perk, and not to the benefit of the employee.

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