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Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

aatishb.com

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Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In keeping with the level of explanation in the article, I was omitting the role of energy in describing the exploration of possible microstates by the system. A system with zero energy is highly constrained in its exploration of possible microstates, and thus is unlikely to undergo a change in its macrostate. A system with a lot of energy is much less constrained, and is more likely to undergo macrostate changes. Th…

This followup still predicts that cooling water cannot cause it to freeze. (And relatedly, it predicts that cold ice will take a long time to melt, but not that it won't melt. In fact, it won't melt.)

I don't see why either of those things follow, particulary the second.

Cold ice, in an environment that doesn't supply energy to the ice, will not explore microstates at any notable pace, and thus will not melt.

I don't think it makes any prediction about what will happen when cooling water, because the freezing reaction is related to the specific chemistry of water molecules. The only prediction is that any macrostate that gets newly entered into is less likely to change, because of the relatively low energy state of the system (compared to the energy required to break the newly formed bonds of the crystalline form.

What did I miss/get wrong?

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#72

excuse my naivete, but do black holes help reduce entropy by capturing/engulfing things around them? Is that the cycle how universe keeps creating and recreating itself?

Nope, black holes have entropy proportional to the surface area of their event horizon. So the more stuff they engulf, the more their entropy increases, and thus they satisfy the 2nd law of thermodynamics just like everything else.

It's a very interesting and active area of physics actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_thermodynamics

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#73
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're priviledging microstates. There are plenty of entropy decreases that are possible without the ice cube reforming. They're (extremely) unlikely of course, but somewhat less unlikely than the new, singular microstate you're asserting is somehow "less of a coincidence". It's vastly more likely (for example) that 1% of the particle velocities reverse than all of them doing so, and that could (depending ...…

Ah, I think we're just miscommunicating. I'm not saying that local time-reversal is more likely to happen than other kinds of entropy decrease; I'm not saying that a system is more likely to retrace its past than to enter a different state of low-entropy. Spontaneous local entropy decreases happen all the time, of course (but are overpowered by entropy increases), and the majority of those won't be exact reversals. A…

>why can't you remember the future the way you can remember the past

this is getting a bit meta, maybe even off-topic. But I think this is fairly simple to explain: you can't remember states you haven't been in. Generalized memory implies some record of a state that has occured - states that have not occured cannot be remembered. The problem is that memory of types that we are familiar with (human, written, computer) all involve macrostates, not microstates. And increasing entropy (aka "more probable things are more likely to happen") mean that there is asymmetry at the macrostate level, and thus in memory.

A memory system that only recorded microstates would, I suggest, have no concept of time, and a much reduced notion of causality. There may be some statistical patterns that could be observed and could perhaps be "strong" enough to infer that "after state N we frequently end up in state P", but the sheer number of states would likely interfere with this.

There's also the timescale problem. A memory system that operates on the timescales of typical human experience will notice relatively constant change in much of the world, as macrostates come and go. But a memory system that operates at, say, geological timescales won't record many macrostate changes at all, and will tend to indicate that almost nothing happens in the world. All those macrostates ("tables", "chairs", "houses", "books") that came and went without being noticed form no part of this system's memory of the world. Of course, there are processes still taking place (new macrostates made up of even more vast microstates), but these going to be even more directional/asymmetric.

The one part of this view that leaves me a little confused is that at very short timescales, the unchanging nature of many macrostates is echoed in relatively unchanging microstates for most solids. The piece of metal that makes your isn't changing macrostates at any appreciable pace (which is why its eventual wearing out forms an asymmetric experience of time for us), but it also isn't changing microstates in any notable way either. I find this confusing.

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#74
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I think we're just miscommunicating. I'm not saying that local time-reversal is more likely to happen than other kinds of entropy decrease; I'm not saying that a system is more likely to retrace its past than to enter a different state of low-entropy. Spontaneous local entropy decreases happen all the time, of course (but are overpowered by entropy increases), and the majority of those won't be exact reversals. A…

>why can't you remember the future the way you can remember the past this is getting a bit meta, maybe even off-topic. But I think this is fairly simple to explain: you can't remember states you haven't been in. Generalized memory implies some record of a state that has occured - states that have not occured cannot be remembered. The problem is that memory of types that we are familiar with (human, written, computer)…

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Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#75
That's remarkably well done, but the underlying principle can be summarised as "regression towards the mean" which is not so difficult to understand.

Now explain this: when the sheep are cooped up in one box you can extract energy from the system. This becomes apparent if you imagine the boundary between the boxes is a fan. As the sheep move from what is a high pressure on one side to 0 pressure on the other they will move the fan. Attach a generator to the fan, and you get energy out.

This configuration, with high pressure on the side low on the other, will happen every so often through random chance. Admittedly not very often, in fact so rarely it's useless to us. But in principle we have a perpetual motion machine.

We don't, of course. But why not?

And more to the point is the 2nd law nothing more than a statement of averages? By which I mean "order always tends towards disorder" is in fact false. We will every so often see order arise from disorder. So the 2nd law is not really a hard and fast law, any more then "you always loose when gambling at the casino" is a hard and fast law.

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#76

So one thing I've never understood is how you can "count" microstates, or bits required to describe them, when the relevant physical parameters all seem to be real numbers. For instance, a gas of N atoms is described by 6N real numbers (3d position and velocity) regardless of how hot it is. The article talks about quanta of energy, but that seems like a simplification at best: a given interaction might be quantized,…

I asked the same question to my professor when I took thermodynamics as an undergrad. In that class we are told that a particle in a box of size 2 can be in twice as many places as a particle in a box of size 1. But in real analysis we learn there are just as many numbers between 0 and 1 as there are between 0 and 2. The answer I was given, in true physicists form, is hand-wave it. There's an intuitive notion that twice as big means twice as many places to be, therefore just accept it and let the mathematicians cry over our abuse of the reals.

The true answer is that "quanta of energy" is not a simplification. The idea that physical variables like energy and position come in discrete units is the quant in quantum physics. If you imagine the position of a particle in a box of size 1 to be discretized into n states, then a box of size 2 really would have 2n states. So all of your concerns are moot because quantum mechanics replaces all the uncountable sets with countable ones.

But this still leaves us with the issue that Boltzmann did all this work before quantum mechanics existed so there must be some useful notion of "bigger uncountable infinities". The answer, as far as I know, is that you can always approximate classical physics with finite precision variables so long as the precision is high enough (replace the reals with floats). The idea of counting states works for any arbitrarily precise (but still finite) discretized variables, and as far as physicists care an arbitrarily precise approximation is the same as the real thing.

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#77
Great article. Can energy be explained in a similarly simple fashion? I'm pretty comfortable with probability theory so this entroppy explaination makes sense, but I still don't understand what energy is.

Also, who determines what a 'macroscopic variable' is? Why do there only seem to be 3 for gassess (V, T, P?)

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#78
post #77

Great article. Can energy be explained in a similarly simple fashion? I'm pretty comfortable with probability theory so this entroppy explaination makes sense, but I still don't understand what energy is. Also, who determines what a 'macroscopic variable' is? Why do there only seem to be 3 for gassess (V, T, P?)

There is more macroscopic variables, for example the three components of the bulk flow velocity or the density of the gas.

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#79

So one thing I've never understood is how you can "count" microstates, or bits required to describe them, when the relevant physical parameters all seem to be real numbers. For instance, a gas of N atoms is described by 6N real numbers (3d position and velocity) regardless of how hot it is. The article talks about quanta of energy, but that seems like a simplification at best: a given interaction might be quantized,…

This is an excellent, and puzzling, question! Let me try to provide some insight into how physicists think about such paradoxes, by addressing the specific example you mention, of the presumed uncountable infinity of different possible photon energies in a finite range of frequencies. In the case of blackbody radiation, when physicists analyze the set of possible photon energies more carefully, they find that there i…

I think part of my mistake was not thinking of the thermal energy packets (phonons?) as waves in boxes, with the box being the boundary of whatever thing has the energy. Which is still weird for a gas expanding into a vacuum I guess, but works for a hot solid object or a confined gas.

Re: Entropy explained, with sheep (2016)

#80

Great article, I had hoped it would also cover locally anti-entropic processes. We do see liquids turn into regular solids after all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caGX6PoVneU

>locally anti-entropic processes. We do see liquids turn into regular solids after all:

Crystallization is exothermic process. It releases heat into environment. It converts potential chemical energy into heat as result of bond making. Thus the total entropy of the system "crystal forming liquid + environment" is increased. Life is another famous process of local anti-entropy which is driven by the increase of the total entropy.

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