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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#301
post #274
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. I don't think that whether real students are interested in a topic is related to how well that choice of study does for them in the real world. International relations, anthropology, women's studies, psychology, etc., are all real subjects that students are actually interested in. Some small fraction of the people who study them actu…

> Some small fraction of the people who study them actually go on to do something near-related to those topics. Many (most?) others go on to work recruters, office managers, in call centers (etc), immediately throwing away their studies and never revisiting them.

You are drawing a line that is convenient to your argument.

I have an engineering degree, and worked for a bunch of years in my discipline. As part of the degree, I had to take 3 calculus courses and one differential equations course. Never needed them on the job. I took 2 circuits courses, 3 electronics courses, 2 communications courses, 2 E&M courses, 1 control theory course, and 1 microcontrollers course - all part of my major. About half were mandatory (not electives). Of these, only 2 courses were relevant for my job. I could have done it as effectively as I did without taking all those other courses.

Amongst engineers, my engineering experience is not an outlier. My experience is the norm. Even while I was in college that was the feedback I would get from people in industry: Most of the engineering courses are useless for your job, and getting the degree is merely a formality and not much of an indicator of knowledge/expertise. The whole "a degree shows you can commit to something for a dedicated amount of time" is mostly a post hoc justification.

Your argument that a "small fraction" of people who study them actually go on to use them applies very well to engineering degrees. I suspect they would apply equally well to CS degrees as well. I mean, I'm the perfect example. I took very little CS in school, but make a living as a SW professional.

Most people I know who got math degrees (but not a PhD) use almost none of it in their jobs - even the technical jobs. Ditto for physics. Should we do away with these as well?

In general, look at all the people who have a BS degree in something other than CS and are working in the SW industry. Look at their degrees. While engineers like me often actually do go on to become engineers, for probably all other majors (math, physics, literature, philosophy, etc) you'll find they rarely get a job in their discipline.

I've lived in countries where those subjects are usually not offered in universities. It really sucks. You usually end up with 2 scenarios:

A class full of people who don't care about the subject but are taking it because society has deemed that what they are interested in is not to be taught in universities. This often results in a lowering of the standards to appease them (who are often in the majority). Indeed, many math majors in the US complain about this - calculus, diff eq and linear algebra are usually taught to cater to engineers, and not math majors.

Or you'll get the other extreme, where the standards are made unnecessarily tight to keep those people out, but in effect also then prevent decent students who are interested in the topic from studying it.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#302
post #250
post #106

I'm a professor at a regional university. Not a big name school, but we have about 5,000 students. We would be bankrupt if we told students we'd only be offering classes online this fall because students, by an overwhelming majority, want the in-person experience. We know we would lose enrollment if we went fully online this fall, and the drop would be significant enough for the university to declare bankruptcy. Harv…

"Many universities cannot." "Most" cannot.

I work as a professor at the University of South Carolina.

I suspect that my employer, as well as similar universities, will be more-or-less okay.

To be sure, there will be pain. Faculty hiring, for example, will take a huge hit -- I feel bad for everyone finishing up grad school and postdocs now, and who was anticipating hitting the academic job market.

In addition, there might be layoffs of tenured faculty, and/or closure of programs like history which are deeply worth preserving but which don't generate the big bucks. You might see a lot of sports get cut -- think swimming, wrestling, golf, etc. -- not the sort which get broadcast on TV. This already happened at Stanford.

But my estimation is that we, and similar universities, do not face an existential threat. Hopefully I'm right.

The schools that are most screwed are small, non-prestigious liberal arts colleges -- most of which are not very well known. Indeed, there were already a number of such closures before the pandemic hit.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#303
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh. That’s the US college experience. College in France is not that fun. You mostly go to class and then go home. I met most of my friends outside of campus during student organized events, so the only benefit was that I was living in a student town where people moved to to go to its university, but the university itself was eventless.

I think this is the thing most people in the US miss when they want higher education to be free for all. Our university system- both public and private- is wildly overpriced compared to other countries with more public funding. Small state schools are closer to that, but any of the bigger schools seem to think that because students get easy access to excessive amounts of cheap loans, they can be extravagant in budget…

It's the pretty standard response when you're a service provider and you know your customer isn't directly footing the bill: you either just flat out raise prices, or you add on expensive amenities to make you look more competitive/attractive.

I guess you could say the same for a publicly-funded system, but at least there the funding is limited and controlled. A lot of people sadly won't blink twice at taking out a larger college loan, even if it'll saddle them with crippling debt later on.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#304
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of colle…

> In reality, they didn't need to save the minimal room and board fees of a state school; they were mostly just cowards. How dare you place judgement on other people's circumstances. Moving away from your family to immerse yourself in your studies is certainly one way to grow as a person, but far from the only way. Maybe someone has to take care of a family member and can't realistically do that, even if they wanted…

So I take it that you are the coward he was referring to.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#305

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

> we are completely re-examining the utility of taking out a student loan that many cannot pay back in their working lifetimes.

Many? Only ~10% of student loans are in delinquency. 90% of borrowers are making payments.

https://www.newyorkfed.org/microeconomics/topics/student-deb...

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether they'd be willing or not is another matter. I know a few though, people that have very high levels of secondary education working trades or other simple jobs because it keeps their stress levels down.

> working trades or other simple jobs because it keeps their stress levels down. Yes! People take "simple jobs" like hauling trash or cleaning sewers or welding pipes because it's stress free! Unlike those high-stress jobs at Facebook where you take the free party bus to the office, get free food, drink, gym, yoga, and massages, and even have internal message boards where you're encouraged to post about how horrible…

I work for a tech company and I get no free food, no free drinks, we have gym membership partnership that basically is the retail cost of any generic gym membership (so it offers no real benefit), no free yoga, and no free massages.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#307

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

> we are completely re-examining the utility of taking out a student loan that many cannot pay back in their working lifetimes. Many? Only ~10% of student loans are in delinquency. 90% of borrowers are making payments. https://www.newyorkfed.org/microeconomics/topics/student-deb...

Making payments is not the same thing as being able to pay back loans in a reasonable amount of time.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#308

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

> we are completely re-examining the utility of taking out a student loan that many cannot pay back in their working lifetimes. Many? Only ~10% of student loans are in delinquency. 90% of borrowers are making payments. https://www.newyorkfed.org/microeconomics/topics/student-deb...

People don't grasp how good America has it for jobs. I have a friend in Australia who emigrated recently and struggling to even get an interview. This is a guy with intellect through the roof, ex-Microsoft, ex-Amazon software engineer and has trouble finding someone who can hire him.

In my personal contact graph - every engineer I know who has graduated (even with C grades) has obtained a job and is happy with what they're doing. If they have loans, I am sure they're paying them off.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#309
post #104
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is college actually good at that sort of thing, or is it just better than staying at home? If I spent half my college tuition on networking, social clubs, conferences, hobby groups, etc, I bet I could do a lot better than I did at my college campus.

Theory and practice. In theory, you could take your college costs and spend them more wisely elsewhere. Internet age gurus like Peter Thiel, Seth Godin & others have been advocating this for 20 years. Want to learn business? Take $50k out of the $200k price tag of a fancy college and start a business with a few similarly minded people. Pay a seasoned business person to advise you. After 4 years, you will know much mo…

Yup, agreed. I figure most parents don't even have the $50k lying around to give their new HS graduate (they'd get it for college through loans and grants). Good luck getting a small business loan as an 18-year-old with no business experience. Savings vehicles for education like a 529 plan certainly won't let you take that money out to start a business.

Life works this way because life works this way. Social structures exist to reinforce the status quo, and these are only changed incrementally, over a long period of time. Potential college-goers who want to jump the queue and do something radical right now, even if it's a much better thing, are going to have a hard time unless they have well-off parents who are willing to take a shot on them.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#310
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. I don't think that whether real students are interested in a topic is related to how well that choice of study does for them in the real world. International relations, anthropology, women's studies, psychology, etc., are all real subjects that students are actually interested in. Some small fraction of the people who study them actu…

> "online marketing" degrees are just part of this category, not anything special in themselves. I disagree in that many of the other topics have a real academic history and tradition, involve the expression of genuinely important ideas. Being immersed in that for years has value: in the facts learned, the overall experience, and an appreciation for aspects of the world that you might not have understood or appreciat…

I agree. And the market is telling us that more jobs in these fields are not needed, while STEM has endless technological problems to address and high salaries for the taking.
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