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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

stanforddaily.com

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#181
post #111

College students have to be somewhere . They don't magically disappear when schools are closed. So this just means they will be getting infected and transmitting the virus in other places. How is that better?

The virus doesn't spread at a constant rate just because people exist.

An infected person comes into contact with other people to a sufficient degree to transmit the virus. Those people, in turn come into contact still other people to a sufficient degree to transmit the virus to them, etc.

At a school, groups of students form, both officially (e.g., in classes) and unofficially (socially), often in ways that are friendly for transmitting the virus. Then groups reform (students go to their next class, or meet with another group of friends or attend another activity), then reform again... and again... and again, etc.

Of course, this doesn't entirely go away when students are off campus. But the transmission vectors are so much smaller -- classes and groups for. other organizations don't occur; social groups tend to be smaller, more stable and with less overlap into other groups.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#182
post #32

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

>These business degrees are fake subjects...

I went to college late dropped out and then went to college again even later in life.

There are many more job opportunities available to me now. But funny you talk about business degrees I found out I lost a job I was qualified for to a person with a business degree. It was just Helpdesk but the business degree person had no IT experience. It was at a large well-known financial organization.

>I do agree the college format should change completely, go online, etc. I think efficiency should be a part of that.

When I went back to college many of the students younger than me had nothing but contempt for classroom style learning. Some of those people failed within the first semester or early second semester. There's also a strong belief anything can be learned by Googling it. I learned about Course Hero when my lab partner submitted a paper we worked on, I was almost expelled. Knowing something takes effort even if you are handed the answers. You can't shortcut learning because knowledge isn't given it's earned.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#183
post #104
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is college actually good at that sort of thing, or is it just better than staying at home? If I spent half my college tuition on networking, social clubs, conferences, hobby groups, etc, I bet I could do a lot better than I did at my college campus.

Theory and practice. In theory, you could take your college costs and spend them more wisely elsewhere. Internet age gurus like Peter Thiel, Seth Godin & others have been advocating this for 20 years. Want to learn business? Take $50k out of the $200k price tag of a fancy college and start a business with a few similarly minded people. Pay a seasoned business person to advise you. After 4 years, you will know much mo…

I don’t think 20 year olds avoid this path because they lack your insight, it’s probably more that most people can’t get $200k from their parents to start a business.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but having gone to a similar university I suspect that the underwater basketweaving degree from Harvard will come with lucrative enough connections to make up for the lack of actual skills. Remember, success is way more than half luck. Going to Harvard makes your luck much better. That Harvard Rolodex will get you a job even if your degree barely certifies that you have a pulse.

But I don't think one enters Harvard committed to taking underwater basketweaving. At least as an undergrad, once you're there, I would assume that, like any college, you have a wide range of courses and majors to choose from, restricted only by needing to follow "X is a prerequisite for Y" structure and possibly being required to take some core classes. (The situation would be different for graduate degrees.) So if…

Sure, I agree with that. But the parent was talking about, well, the parents' motivation.

The parents probably recognize that, if their kid fails miserably at Harvard but manages to graduate with a questionably useful degree, they will still succeed because they'll still be able to flex their network to get a job of some kind with a salary.

Once you have a salaried position your life has a step jump in stability.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#185
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Stanford students are even capable of working a trade?

it would be interesting to see the ambition and execution discipline of a young person who made in to, and through, Stanford applied to a traditional trade. If i may use a dirty word, "disruptive" comes to mind.

There's plenty of guys that go into the trades (thinking more like welding, machining, diesel repair) that quickly start running their own truck or shop, work for themselves, maybe hire a few employees and make bank. That's what it would likely look like I imagine.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#186

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

I worry about the effects on economic mobility, and eventually on overall per-capita productivity, in a world where we stop encouraging as many people to pursue higher education.

Yes, there are people today that wind up with college debt and don't have a correspondingly higher income to pay it off. But there are other solutions to address this problem, like lowering the costs of college to where they were just a couple of decades ago. Or perhaps changing the framework by which loans are made (e.g. if college loans were simply dismissible in bankruptcy, default rates would skyrocket and lenders would not be able to hand out such large sums of money so easily, and colleges would have to adapt by lowering their costs). And on average, people with degrees still earn more than those without, and enough more to pay off a loan over time. We should be wary of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

In a world where college is no longer normalized as the default option for a moderately ambitious 18-year-old, aren't we just reverting to how things worked for hundreds of years until quite recently? The kids from upper class families will continue to go to Ivy League schools, but kids from middle class and poorer families will be told from a young age that their path is to go to a trade school, or get an apprenticeship. College is too expensive and not worth it for them, so they won't even try. It just seems like a step backwards.

Lastly, I will admit I'm somewhat personally invested in this topic, and I take some offense at the idea of useless degrees. My partner grew up lower-middle class, neither of their parents went to college, but they took out a lot of money in loans and got an English Literature degree (which I believe is a commonly-agreed useless degree). If it had not been for the encouragement of teachers, and basically society at large that college is a good idea, they could have very easily not gone and just gotten an entry level job in their home town instead. Now they have a great, high-paying career in tech working in sales and operations. One very successful founder I worked for in the past had a philosophy degree (as did many other famous people in tech, like Reid Hoffman). Every job, but especially a job in sales or management/leadership, requires working with, understanding, and motivating other people. Many liberal arts degrees focus on exactly this.

Dismissing any degree outside of science, technology, or medicine as being as useless as "underwater basket weaving" is just absurd.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#187
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stanford cancelling on-campus education definitely feels like a major bellwether. It's hard to think of any school better positioned to make it work. Not just because of its wealth and elite status, but because the climate is so aggressively warm and non-rainy, and the spacious campus absolutely has the space (though perhaps not the seating/tables, at least initially) to accommodate all-outdoor classes and activities…

UIUC in Champaign/Urbana (Illinois) is still bringing everyone back to campus. A friend just moved his son into the dorms this week.

Not everyone, most classes are still online, and if you want you can not take any in person classes, even for lower tuition. Many of my friends are opting to stay home next semester.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#188

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

Do you have a source for this? It's commonly stated, but I've read that earnings for trades are over-stated. Just googling around, it looks like a plumber around here makes $35-70k, which I'd expect most to be able attain in an entry-level corporate job.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#189

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

>In a few months we are completely re-examining the utility of taking out a student loan that many cannot pay back in their working lifetimes.

Actually this has been true for many decades, not just the last 10-20 years. The issue is exasperated due to massive unemployment because of the mismanagement of covid19.

There will be no 're-examining' because there is so much bloat that votes. Countless administrators that actually vote for their interests, at the expense of the students. It's systemic and just like police reform, it's not going to be an easy and fast change. When renovating the system, there are losers and those losers will fight you tooth and nail to prevent progress.

It's partly why I like creative models like Lambda School. There is a massive opportunities for business(es) to help fix this gap but...again, incentives are not static.

A business helping you get a high skilled job, might want cheaper labor, so they flood the market with more workers, which reduces the collective in that field.

In conclusion, these issues are massive/systemic. It's entrenched to society and protected by stakeholders. Effectively making change happen won't be easy and we may be creating a 'wake-a-mole' type environment where we solve today's problems and gain two problems tomorrow.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#190
post #147
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of colle…

Heh. That’s the US college experience. College in France is not that fun. You mostly go to class and then go home. I met most of my friends outside of campus during student organized events, so the only benefit was that I was living in a student town where people moved to to go to its university, but the university itself was eventless.

I think this is the thing most people in the US miss when they want higher education to be free for all. Our university system- both public and private- is wildly overpriced compared to other countries with more public funding.

Small state schools are closer to that, but any of the bigger schools seem to think that because students get easy access to excessive amounts of cheap loans, they can be extravagant in budgeting- sports facilities, gyms, administration, etc.

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