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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

stanforddaily.com

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#281

Post by bgorman »

jimmar wrote: post #143
jstepka wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

businesses go through these challenges all the time. the fat that gets trimmed is what makes them better.

I agree that universities should do more to control costs. I'll push back just a bit that trimming all "fat" would make universities better. Where I am, the "fat" proposed for trimming is support for study abroad, music education, research conferences, and other things that enrich the lives of students and (hopefully) benefit society as a whole.

My Alma matter, also a regional university charges 47k a year in tuition.

Assuming I take 12 classes a year and my classes average 15 students each, that puts the cost of providing a single class at $58,750.

What the heck is going on for universities to have such an insane cost structure.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#282

Post by m0zg »

non-entity wrote: post #271
m0zg wrote: post #269

Reduce prices. Expand the number of students. Most STEM work does not require that you be present on campus. Heck, even "gender studies" degrees do not require it, if you'd like more of that. This is once in a decade opportunity to increase the throughput, _and_ increase the quality of their creme de la creme (because with more throughput more high performing outliers will randomly be caught). And they'll 100% squand…

> Most STEM work does not require that you be present on campus I was under the impression that the reason more STEM degrees weren't online because you can't effectively replicate science or engineering labs at home very well. Most engineers (not software engineers) I've talked too said they wouldn't take an online degree very seriously.

And that's why I said "most" STEM and not just "STEM". I'm sure labs could be set up to do experimental work. You just don't need the rest of the campus (and the blood sucking administrators that go with that).

> they wouldn't take an online degree very seriously

They would, if that was the only degree available. And I'm sure Stanford, of all places, can do it as well as anybody.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#284

Post by Miraste »

gowld wrote: post #248
doorstar wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College vs. trade school isn't just about money or 'social acceptability', it's also about opportunity. A 18 year old who goes to trade school to become an electrician is going to become an electrician, they are not going to be able to change their minds in two years and become a biologist. That kid who went to college at 18 has a lot more options. They can switch majors, they can take internships, they can get their…

Also, there are no underwater basket weaving degrees. There are art degrees, for artists, not people expecting to make well paying careers out of it.

"Underwater basket weaving degrees" is a great piece of rhetoric because it lets the listener project their personal most hated field in its place. If you think gender studies degrees are useless, I don't see the value in marketing, and we run into this little meme: boom, suddenly we're attacking higher education hand in hand. Epstein conspiracies are another example. Lots of people think he didn't kill himself. Ask them what did happen and they're at loggerheads, but if you can steer thoughts away from that you have broad public support. It's a clever if disastrous way to build American anti-intellectualism.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#285

Post by heimatau »

jhbadger wrote: post #259
heimatau wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a few months we are completely re-examining the utility of taking out a student loan that many cannot pay back in their working lifetimes. Actually this has been true for many decades, not just the last 10-20 years. The issue is exasperated due to massive unemployment because of the mismanagement of covid19. There will be no 're-examining' because there is so much bloat that votes. Countless administrators that a…

Not that many decades. For example, I was an undergraduate in 1988-1992. I never had any student loans nor did my parents pay for my tuition. They made it a point of principle that we pay for our education ourselves by working part time, as they themselves had done. But that just isn't possible today. When I went to (public) university, the tuition was under $2000/semester. These days it is over $10000. Wages have go…

> Not that many decades

IMHO since removing the gold standard (1970s), this problem came up. I'm glad you have been able to but that possibility was shrinking every year. Less and less people were able to do what you did, starting in the 70s. Financial college administrators kept up with inflation whereas jobs didn't. Income didn't. Expenses took a little time to catch up with inflation as well. So, that might've been why for your situation. It wasn't extremely prohibitive but the issue compounds every year.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#286

Post by WalterBright »

eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

The "underwater basket weaving" degrees will disappear if students have to pay for those degrees themselves.

I'm not really understanding students who take on loans they cannot realistically pay back. Finding the salary and job prospects for various majors is a literally trivial google search away. How can one go through 4 years of college and never check this?

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#287

Post by fortran77 »

war1025 wrote: post #268
32notp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by that?

Would you be equally confused if it was phrased the other way? "How many trade workers are even capable of going to Stanford?" People like to talk about "grit" in white collar circles. If you want to see real "grit" go talk to the blue collar people who do shitty jobs at the expense of their personal health so their kids can have a better life. The working class has an understanding of self sacrifice that is largely…

Thank you.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#288

Post by netcan »

beaner wrote: post #274
netcan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. I don't think that whether real students are interested in a topic is related to how well that choice of study does for them in the real world. International relations, anthropology, women's studies, psychology, etc., are all real subjects that students are actually interested in. Some small fraction of the people who study them actu…

International relations is an actual subject area. It's true that we don't need that many diplomats, and that people might be just studying it out of interest... or because it sounded better than something else.

Most business courses are literally fake. The stuff being taught was invented in order to be taught. Quite a lot of it is learning the meaning of terms that were invented in order to be taught. It's not that there aren't real business subjects. Finance and accounting are real subjects. Economics is a real subject, in the sense that philosophy is a real subject. Statistics, etc.

The trend is (and has been for decades) to teach mostly (or only) fluff courses.

The bottom third of these things are functional equivalents of diploma mills. Ask business graduates over a pint. Most will admit it.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#289

Post by WalterBright »

netcan wrote: post #159
kriro wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think calling "most business degrees excepting accounting and finance" a problem just seems wrong and frankly pretty arrogant. I do think too many people take business degrees and think they'll just "become managers" (and there's a high number of "don't know what else to do" type of students) but there are many actually useful things taught in the typical degree programs. I mean thinking of a typical non specialize…

Well... criticising anyone's degree (even though I also have such a degree) is always arrogant. That's the point we're at though. It has become the most popular degree while simultaneously getting worse in quality... starting from a low base. As I said, I have one of these degrees, and have hired and worked with many people with such degrees. First, I agree that the math and (particularly) the statistics classes are…

Practicing math avoidance is indeed a path to a low paying career. This includes those who get engineering degrees while taking the minimum and easiest math courses possible. Then their jobs get outsourced.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#290

Post by oivey »

eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Can the trades support a sea change in employment/education that leads to a massive new labor supply while maintaining high wages? My guess is probably not based on the scale of change you’re suggesting. America’s labor market is fundamentally broken, and the issues with higher education are only a symptom.
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